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Topic: The answer is not always "the immigrants" okay?
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Mela

11/8/2013 10:28:48 AM
Member since:
May 2008
Total posts:1133
The answer is not always "the immigrants" okay?

I don't like to start posts with rants, so I'm going to try to keep this relatively short...but it's not going to be easy.  
 
It seems as though any time there's a situation where the traditions of prayer are challenged or removed from an event or business, the first thing I hear is something like "if THEY don't like it they can go home".  
 
We do realize that many of these battles are being fought by Canadians who do not believe prayer has a place, and I don't mean new Canadians, right? Immigrants may fight for their right to maintain their own faith, but usually things like Christmas concerts, prayers at government banquets, and the like are being battled by people who have lived in Canada their whole lives.  
 
I think it's fairly ignorant to jump the gun in conversations about these things and blame immigrants for the issues that our own people are starting and I'm really sick of it. Can we stop assuming that immigrants are to blame for all of Canada's problems please? Because they're boosting our economies, bolstering the number of doctors, and taking jobs able bodied life-long Canadians refuse to do that need to be done, and raising our next generation and have every right to make suggestions because even though they weren't born here, they are permanent residents and citizens of this country and have the same rights as you or I.  
 
We don't like to think about it, but there was a time when the Aboriginal people probably felt pretty crappy about having their entire way of life stripped from them. I'd rather not hear "that was different" unless you mean that it was WAY way worse.  
 
I don't like thinking about losing Christmas concerts or prayer at Remembrance day Services or whatever, because as a Christian I am more than comfortable with it. However, there are many - life-long Canadians included - who argue that the time for it has passed and I'm only asking that we open our minds to the possibility that immigrants are not to blame for what we are uncomfortable with. They aren't just "the immigrants". New Canadians...that's who they are.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by Mela, 2013-11-08 10:42:48

 
 
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Opinionated

11/8/2013 10:51:54 AM
Member since:
May 2009
Total posts:2854
THANK YOU MELA!!!

The ignorance regarding the reasons for religion being removed from public schools that is displayed in these threads on a regular basis is alarming!! Is the general public really so ignorant, uneducated and hateful towards immigrants that they can't see the truth?  
 
People need to accept the fact that there are more and more Non-Christian multi-generation Canadians who are sick and tired of being forced to observe religious holidays! Especially in our publicly funded schools!  
 
It's just awful how some regular posters view immigrants as such a huge burden and problem. I bet most don't know that MANY of Brandon's immigrants are in fact devout Christians...many Catholic in fact. They celebrate Christmas and go to Church and pray daily. Most are far more kind and open minded than some of the hateful people on here who blame them for everything!  
 
I'm an atheist who doesn't want any sort of prayer in school. Unless of course I can also come in and explain to your children that the Bible was really written to control the masses with fear?  
 
And by the way, I can trace my family roots in Canada back over 300 years and come from Catholics and Mennonites. Don't you dare tell me my taxes have to support forcing Christianity on everyone.

EE

11/8/2013 12:36:11 PM
Member since:
Dec 2009
Total posts:12
Agreed!

Agree. 100%

Princewill

11/8/2013 12:45:12 PM
Member since:
Dec 2011
Total posts:301
I

agree with you 100% as well. I would also like to point out that just in case alot of people have forgotten, that Canada is a country of immigrants, and it doesn`t matter whether you immigrated to Canada 100 years ago or 2013, you are an immigrant. The only people that can truly refer to others as immigrants are the first nations or Aboriginal people.

Tamara79

11/8/2013 1:07:55 PM
Member since:
Apr 2007
Total posts:2075
I also agree

as soon as I read a post with 'they' can go home etc I know, there is no point in commenting as an intelligent discussion can not be had. I would first like to know...who exactly is 'they', describe to me who 'they' is, or give a specific example. I think alot of people would be surprised at just how many of the new Canadians are in fact devout Christians or Catholics, who could perhaps educate us 'Canadians' on the true meaning of alot of the watered down Christian traditions we are defending against 'them'. I found it amusing to read one poster say the nativity scene isn't even really a religious symbol, but more of a 'classic' tradition. Travel outside NA and see how 'they' truly revere their nativity scenes. As for how 'they' want all our traditional Christian practices removed from schools-the argument is often that they should open their own schools if they dont like it...yet when they do just that there is a great outcry of how they don't try 'fit in'. Then there is the 'they should go back where they came from' ignorant defense. Well who then is going to pay the taxes they have been paying, buy the homes they buy, work the jobs they work, and in general fill in the gaps that we Canadians can not or will not fill ourselves. We can't forget, that no one is immigrating to Canada to sit on welfare.  
 

Desertnewf

11/8/2013 1:23:27 PM
Member since:
Aug 2008
Total posts:854
I

think the rest of Canada should follow what the Quebec Gov't is doing. The proposed legislation would force state employees to take off their headscarves, yarmulkes, turbans and larger-than-average crucifixes if they want to keep their jobs.  
"In the exercise of their functions, personnel members of public bodies must not wear objects such as headgear, clothing, jewelry or other adornments which, by their conspicuous nature, overtly indicate a religious affiliation," the bill states. Taken from CTV News website.  
 
Nuff said.  
 
 

Tamara79

11/8/2013 1:36:57 PM
Member since:
Apr 2007
Total posts:2075
....

  
Desertnewf said "think the rest of Canada should follow what the Quebec Gov't is doing. The proposed legislation would force state employees to take off their headscarves, yarmulkes, turbans and larger-than-average crucifixes if they want to keep their jobs.  
"In the exercise of their functions, personnel members of public bodies must not wear objects such as headgear, clothing, jewelry or other adornments which, by their conspicuous nature, overtly indicate a religious affiliation," the bill states. Taken from CTV News website.  
 
Nuff said.  
 
 
"

and what party attempted to put forth this new legislation and why? What is their motivation?

katwalk1909

11/8/2013 3:16:32 PM
Member since:
Aug 2008
Total posts:7094
Not Quebec Attitude

The wearing of religious or devotion articles does not make a doctor less likely to correctly diagnose my illness so why should she have to remove it? I like the concept of having a religion 24/7 rather than the diluted one hour a week that appears to be the norm.  
 
If ALL religious articles are to be removed then they should also remove the rings they received in a religious ceremony of marriage. I am willing to bet that this will not happen. Apparently, many Christian symbols will be allowed under the guise of "tradition" or "historic" but the only history that should apply is First Nations symbols as anything else was brought to Canada by Immigrants.  
 
Rather than a melting pot, I would like to see Canada as a salad, with many different types of people mixed together, but still appearing as an individual.  
 

Wintrman

11/8/2013 3:47:45 PM
Member since:
Jan 2011
Total posts:380
To follow the Quebec lead

would be difficult at best. There would be many that would say it is in violation of their rights to not wear this or that article. So to bring that into this conversation might not prove helpful, regardless of how much sense it may make.  
 
Canada may have been founded on a Christian religion, but that foundation is crumbling and we are changing on a daily basis. To reprimand an imigrant race or class for the loss of a ceremonial right is clearly wrong headed. Although I would say it is part of the path to change that many do point the fingers at those from abroad.  
 
It is the memories many of us hold dear as kids that make some of us upset. We remember the fun we had and the memories it all created for us. Now we simply have to find a different way to celebrate those times in our youth because we cannot put one religion above another as upsetting as that may be for many folks these days.  
 
Logically, the next thing would be to do away with Christmas, Easter, Good Friday and so on. As a Christian, do I support it? Not really, but logically that would be an upcoming step.  
 
If we are truly to respect each other, religious holidays should be renamed so as not to offend. Why should Easter be any more important than Yom Kippur, or the holidays of any other religion. Perhaps we should take a step to celebrate humanity, rather than religion, and rename the holidays and leave within the constitution or labor law the right to take a certain number of days allocated to celebrate our faith in private. These days would be set out by leaders of the respective recognized faiths and respected.  
 
On the other hand...slightly....we let folks celebrate their faiths and show it openly. Wear your symbols. Wear your garb. If it does not affect the way you do your job, then there should be no problem with it.  
 
It's the bigots of all stripes that show intolerance when they criticize a persons right to practice their faith. No religion should be held above another. No religion should be given preference.  
 
Having said that, however, Rememberance Day Services should not be put off or cancelled because of religion. Religion aside, the Rememberance of all those who served, regardless of religion, and sacrificed their lives or their safety for the betterment of this country should be sacrosanct and respected. It's on a Day like Rememberance day when businesses should be shut down and locked up so we can collectively remember what our Veterans(of every religion) did for us.  
 
Rant done. Nuff said.

Rowdy

11/8/2013 3:57:35 PM
Member since:
Aug 2013
Total posts:47
soooooo

what you are saying is that we should get rid of any type of religious beliefs or traditions because it may offend somebody But others that wear or show there religious beliefs or traditions should be allowed to do so, hmm kind of a double standard

Tamara79

11/8/2013 4:03:36 PM
Member since:
Apr 2007
Total posts:2075
there is a difference

  
Rowdy said "what you are saying is that we should get rid of any type of religious beliefs or traditions because it may offend somebody But others that wear or show there religious beliefs or traditions should be allowed to do so, hmm kind of a double standard "

between wearing/displaying a symbol of your faith on your person and expecting me to participate in your religious tradition/faith.

axana596

11/8/2013 5:57:32 PM
Member since:
Jul 2010
Total posts:708
imho

This seems to be turning into two different discussions:  
 
1) First topic is "let's not blame immigrants for our society trying to eliminate religious holidays"  
and  
2) Second topic is "let's force all immigrants to turn into cookie-cutter versions of our current selves".  
 
Frankly, I married an immigrant AND teaching English to immigrants is my life career. I also took a BA in Intercultural Studies.  
 
That being said, I think my points of view are obvious.

Lala_D

11/8/2013 5:58:26 PM
Member since:
Oct 2013
Total posts:115
Personally

I just think that Canadians are too nice. We are always trying to accommodate & not offend others.

Princewill

11/8/2013 6:11:08 PM
Member since:
Dec 2011
Total posts:301
I

  
Tamara79 said "
  
Rowdy said "what you are saying is that we should get rid of any type of religious beliefs or traditions because it may offend somebody But others that wear or show there religious beliefs or traditions should be allowed to do so, hmm kind of a double standard "

between wearing/displaying a symbol of your faith on your person and expecting me to participate in your religious tradition/faith. "

Think we're gradually moving away from our fundamental human rights of what makes us great as a nation. Who tells who what to or nor wear or display? Aren't we now moving towards becoming like the kind of people denying themselves of freedom? The very same thing that makes this country a great nation, is about about to be taken away. It's like starting a war yet asking for peace. You don't have to become nonreligious to be a good citizen of this country. So let's allow people believe and practice whatever they want openly , without fear or favor, and lets deal with one one another respectfully. If my religion makes you feel uncomfortable, then you either need to go get one or reexamine yourself. Just my thoughts on the issue.

boothill farms

11/8/2013 6:45:37 PM
Member since:
Sep 2009
Total posts:78
I am

Concerned about the trend of moving away from religion, any religion.....but freedom is freedom. Restricting some or any or even one freedom is then not freedom.  
 
Freedom is freedom, Canada is one of the best country in the world because of freedom.

west

11/9/2013 5:30:15 AM
Member since:
Oct 2011
Total posts:1102
my opinion....

I have to say that the Quebec law that they are trying to get passed makes sense to me...Government employees will not be allowed to wear obvious religious symbols while at work...no turbans,yalmulkes,ceremonial daggers,large crosses,women with faces covered,etc,etc...at home or when they are not at work...fine...they can wear anything they want...I think that's reasonable....

Princewill

11/9/2013 5:34:04 AM
Member since:
Dec 2011
Total posts:301
I

  
boothill farms said "Concerned about the trend of moving away from religion, any religion.....but freedom is freedom. Restricting some or any or even one freedom is then not freedom.  
 
Freedom is freedom, Canada is one of the best country in the world because of freedom. "

Totally agree with you.

Torque

11/9/2013 6:55:28 AM
Member since:
Dec 2011
Total posts:298
:

I always find it amusing when people refer to "the immigrants" with an air of superiority and detachment, as if their own parents, grandparents or great-grandparents weren't part of that club. Everyone in north america is an immigrant if you draw the line back far enough.  
 
You were born here? Congratulations, you're still only here because of immigrants.

Spaghetti Monster

11/9/2013 7:28:38 AM
Member since:
Feb 2010
Total posts:1779
Mela.....

.....you are, of course, correct. When it comes to trying to end government sanctioned prosyltising it is not always the immigrants, I would go so far as to say it is rarely the " new Canadians" unless they also happen to be atheist.  
 

katwalk1909

11/9/2013 8:59:37 AM
Member since:
Aug 2008
Total posts:7094
So Which Tradition Should Be Law?

  
Electric Warrior 1971 said "
  
Princewill said "agree with you 100% as well. I would also like to point out that just in case alot of people have forgotten, that Canada is a country of immigrants, and it doesn`t matter whether you immigrated to Canada 100 years ago or 2013, you are an immigrant. The only people that can truly refer to others as immigrants are the first nations or Aboriginal people. "

How can you say that aboriginal people can refer to us as immagrants? ...they also immigrated here too a few thousand years ago! "

This is why there should be no law prohibiting the wearing of or displaying of traditional or religious symbols.  
 
And this is why there should be no finger pointing or blaming of immigrants for the laws that remove some religious activities from the secular public school.  
 
Wearing or displaying a symbol is acceptable but insisting that all people in the vicinity must participate in your religious activities is not right. The requests are not just from recent immigrants but also from many that have been here for generations but were told to shut up for too long. We finally have the freedom to speak out and stop this practice  
 

Beav99

11/9/2013 9:12:42 AM
Member since:
Jan 2010
Total posts:138
Hmm

I agree that everyone should be able to believe in whatever they want without discrimination, but I don't think it's fair that our western culture and traditions have to change because it's not fair to the immigrants that don't believe. If you moved to our country you should have to accept the culture that comes along with it. Would it be fair if a bunch of Canadians moved to another country and expected them to cancel a 100 year school tradition because there are to many Canadians that don't believe? I would be extremely heart broken if I couldn't watch my children at their Christmas concert. You shouldn't have to participate if you choose but if I moved my family to another country I would want them to be involved in school traditions even if we didn't believe. That's what being apart of another culture is about.

Opinionated

11/9/2013 9:28:10 AM
Member since:
May 2009
Total posts:2854
holy crap Beav

Did you even read the first two posts?? Are people really happy being this ignorant? Please, read the first two posts so you understand what this thread is about!

SJK

11/9/2013 9:52:41 AM
Member since:
Jul 2006
Total posts:4301
Why don't

  
Opinionated said "Did you even read the first two posts?? Are people really happy being this ignorant? Please, read the first two posts so you understand what this thread is about! "

we just tell it like it is.  
 
It's the atheists that are behind the push to remove all religious symbols, traditions, christian values from public institutions.  
 
Fair enough, I have no problem with that. I find it rather disturbing that these same people want their views (or lack there of)respected are the first ones to condemn someone for their belief that God does exist.  
 
You can't have it both ways!

katwalk1909

11/9/2013 10:32:55 AM
Member since:
Aug 2008
Total posts:7094
Who's Tradition Should Take Priority?

Beav, why should your hundred year old tradition of stepping on others be more important than my three hundred year old tradition that has been strangled for centuries? The only reason you have a tradition is because it was shoved down people's throats whether they wanted to participate or not. Slavery was also a tradition until freedom became more important. Why should I have to continue to be a slave to your religious tradition? I am not telling you to not follow your beliefs, just stop insisting that everyone else be a slave to them as well.  
 
 

Opinionated

11/9/2013 10:59:41 AM
Member since:
May 2009
Total posts:2854
SJK

As an atheist, I honestly don't personally care if my kid is exposed to a nativity scene in school, or prayer during the Remembrance Day service. Her school has a Christmas concert and everyone loves it. They even sing a few Christian songs along with the Santa stuff. She even currently believes in God, and it doesn't bother me, as I will let her choose her faith rather than in doctrine her like most religious parents. However, I do care if it makes others uncomfortable. That's the thing about a lot of us atheists...we care about others. If someone comes to the school and says "we celebrate x religion, why is it not included?", I would fully expect it to be included, or every Christian aspect of the current concert removed. And if a Christian family said they were offended by their child being exposed to a different religion in the name of inclusion, then I would fully expect every bit of religion be removed from the school concerts so as not to offend anyone. It's either represent all or none. If that makes me horrible, so be it.  
 
But, this thread isn't about atheists as much as it is about the bigots in these parts who blame immigrants for all that is wrong in their close-minded worlds. Jumping on the "it's THEIR fault" bandwagon just makes people look like uneducated idiots, but I'm glad to see you (SJK) have the sense to realize it is not "them" but "us" that is done with being forced into religion.

thinking

11/9/2013 11:36:54 AM
Member since:
May 2009
Total posts:1072
Who is right

and who is wrong? this battle is going to go on for decades as there will always be some group that feels they have been given the short stick. I might suggest take out all religious holidays, as we all know they are scattered through out the year and we will be on equal terms, one step to equality. If people want to wear turbons (sp), let them, as I am sure if I go to their country, I am not going to wear one. Let them speak what ever language they choose to, if they get along with other people that speak their language, great. If they speak their native tounge, who cares, not ma as I don't listen to others conversations no matter what language they speak.  
 
This isn't going to get fixed, so you might as well learn to live with it for years to come

Tamara79

11/9/2013 11:50:19 AM
Member since:
Apr 2007
Total posts:2075
.....

  
Princewill said "
  
Tamara79 said "
  
Rowdy said "what you are saying is that we should get rid of any type of religious beliefs or traditions because it may offend somebody But others that wear or show there religious beliefs or traditions should be allowed to do so, hmm kind of a double standard "

between wearing/displaying a symbol of your faith on your person and expecting me to participate in your religious tradition/faith. "

Think we're gradually moving away from our fundamental human rights of what makes us great as a nation. Who tells who what to or nor wear or display? Aren't we now moving towards becoming like the kind of people denying themselves of freedom? The very same thing that makes this country a great nation, is about about to be taken away. It's like starting a war yet asking for peace. You don't have to become nonreligious to be a good citizen of this country. So let's allow people believe and practice whatever they want openly , without fear or favor, and lets deal with one one another respectfully. If my religion makes you feel uncomfortable, then you either need to go get one or reexamine yourself. Just my thoughts on the issue. "

I agree with until you're last few lines which contradict your first few few lines. YES your religion makes me uncomfortable when I am being forced to participate in it. Which is why there is a push for secularism. It should be all or nothing. Have everyone's right to have their beliefs recognized, or none at all. Yes you don't have to be non-religious to be a good citizen of this country..but you dont need to be Christian either. There are many many Canadians whether new or natural born who are not Christian based believers.  
 
Edited by Tamara79, 2013-11-09 11:51:50

tawktru

11/9/2013 11:55:10 AM
Member since:
Sep 2010
Total posts:6
Mela

Yes!!! So many people feel the same way. It P's me off when people use that friggin line, immigrants this, immigrants that. Hmmmm.. where did our grandparents or great grandparents come from?...... Exactly

slurpeegirl

11/9/2013 12:08:22 PM
Member since:
Feb 2010
Total posts:1176
why not just keep it to yourself?

all people, with all religion. practice whatever you choose to but, on your own time.  
 
unless someone is being paid to advertise their religion at work, there should be no trace of it in the workplace. you're being paid a wage to do a job, not recruit new members for your congregation.  
 
as far as religion in schools, there should be none. if it is not part of the curriculum, to further education and prepare you for the workforce, it is irrelevant. anything offered would likely be just personal opinion, which is not what education is supposed to be.  
 
for people who feel the need to have religion in their day to day lives, talk to your person of clergy. there may be some extra curricular activities that are held by your church. get your fix there, with like minded people but, don't impose it on anyone else. if people approach you with questions - have at it! they asked you for spiritual guidance so, feel free to chat them up.  
 
we were all created in the exact same way. over the years, everyone's ideas, around the world, have evolved differently, which is unavoidable. for people to pretend that they are right and someone else is wrong is a waste of time. for many people, their religion has been what their family has practised for generations and that is all they know. if they have gotten by just fine for generations, it is not for someone else to come along and say it's wrong.  
 
for anyone who thinks that their religion is so much better that they can look down their nose at someone else...... tell me what that religion is and show me proof that your religion has never played a part in any war.

hildebeb

11/9/2013 12:30:55 PM
Member since:
Jun 2012
Total posts:18
To All

First I do agree with the original poster that we need to stop blaming the immigrants for changes.  
 
Secondly I would like to say that I am not Christian but I am spiritual. I do not agree that organized religion should be forced on everyone, that is what happened 300 hundred years ago with the first nations. If you choose to follow a specific religion well that is your choice and does not give you a right to push your views on others. Religion is suppose to be a personal belief not something that is forced on someone else.  
 
So I do not really care if you want to where all your religous symbols or prayer at work, school or such but do not force your ways on others, everyone has the right to make a choice of what they want to believe in. I do not want to see the day when some religous group dictates how everyone should believe.  
 
So the day that the people who cant accept others for who they are stop this and the day people realize that they can believe what they want and are not pushing it on others things will be better.  

 
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