So on top of joining the US in their occupation of Afghanistan that has seen the deaths of thousands of civilians and displaced 100s of thousands more...all to support US goals of stealing resources on behalf on multi-national energy firms, expanding their imperial goals and propping up druglords, warlords and rampant corruption...Now, thanks to our morally superior leadership...we are now in danger of having our international reputation permanently sullied as we turn a blind eye to the torture of detainees. Many of whom had nothing to do with the insurgency.  
 
How does any of this serve our national interests?  
 
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/727879-canada-shamed-on-afghan-prisoner-torture  
 

OTTAWA–Defence Minister Peter MacKay says he never saw reports by a Canadian diplomat warning of possible torture in Afghan prisons.  
 
It was revealed this week that two reports in early 2006 warned the federal government that prisoners turned over by Canadian troops were likely being tortured.  
 
The documents were circulated widely throughout the Foreign Affairs and Defence departments and were also shared with senior military commanders in Ottawa and Afghanistan, said an affidavit filed with a military watchdog agency.  
 
Yet when allegations of abuse surfaced in the spring of 2007, Prime Minister Stephen Harper and several cabinet ministers insisted they had received no credible reports from Canadian officials about possible torture.  
 
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/710721

I've always seen Harper as being in bed with the enemy, a.k.a. Bush. His 'Ask me no questions and i'll tell you no lies' attitude will be his downfall. Now I know that the ex-Reform party members had to be brought in line because they were shooting themselves in the foot each week but let's be a bit more transparent Harper.

Another anti USA thread. God it gets tiring.

Why is it that our government always lies but the Taliban always tell the truth?

We set a standard for our leaders. We expect them to be honest and forthright. I know the taliban and others lie also and our government is pretty good as far as governments go but I will not stick to one camp. I look at all the facts and support when support is warranted and call them to task when the need to be called to task.  
How could a Minister state that he did not see a memo when it was found to be in his office by an auditor. If he did not see the memo then he is either incompetent or his staff does not advise him of important matters, which possibility of torture is important. either way the Minister was not doing his job. If as a boss my staff does not inform me of important decisions, I would get staff that do.  
 
 
 
Edited by Cheeky Chuck, 2009-11-19 15:36:58

swansong said "So on top of joining the US in their occupation of Afghanistan that has seen the deaths of thousands of civilians and displaced 100s of thousands more...all to support US goals of stealing resources on behalf on multi-national energy firms, expanding their imperial goals and propping up druglords, warlords and rampant corruption...Now, thanks to our morally superior leadership...we are now in danger of having our international reputation permanently sullied as we turn a blind eye to the torture of detainees. Many of whom had nothing to do with the insurgency.     How does any of this serve our national interests?     http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/727879-canada-shamed-on-afghan-prisoner-torture     "

I'm sorry, but I find posts like yours to be entirely unhelpful. Not only are they not constructive, they are actually so ignorant as to be destructive.  
 
The issue of prisoners we've already handed over being tortured is a real one that needs addressing. And by all accounts it certainly looks like a blind eye was turned to it at high levels within our government. That's a problem and it needs to be brought forward. It does NOT need to be tied into anti-American conspiracy theories about imperialist conquest. You discredit the real problem by that association, which is a real shame. Although from your post, it seems you really don't care about that anyways and are instead interested in bashing America, the Great Satan.  
 
"How does any of this serve our national interests?"  
 
Well, you won't see it on network news, but it serves western interests by keeping Pakistan, and it's nuclear arsenal, from falling under the control of Islamic extremists allied with the Taliban. Stealing Afghanistan's 'vast' supply of natural resources is just another ludicrous conspiracy. If there is any real conspiracy, it is one of silence over the real reason anybody in the west ever cared at all about Afghanistan. The reason for the silence is not to keep us in the dark, but instead to avoid further destabilizing Pakistan. Just as the Taliban were hosting Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, over in Pakistan Musharaff and his military where allied with Islamic extremists tied to both Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. The message of Afghanistan was that leaders harboring those that would attack America would be held accountable as though they committed the attack themselves. Specifically, Musharraf(and by proxy all Pakistani leaders) was being told that the choice was to sever ties with the jihadists or else.  
 
Or if you like shorter and simpler explanations, Afghanistan isn't about Turkmenistan's natural gas, it is about Pakistan's nukes. Of course, any American official saying that would lend great support to the extremists already working to destabilize Pakistan.

bah i recind my comment  
 
Edited by degenerate108, 2009-11-19 15:48:23

bcglorf said "    swansong said "So on top of joining the US in their occupation of Afghanistan that has seen the deaths of thousands of civilians and displaced 100s of thousands more...all to support US goals of stealing resources on behalf on multi-national energy firms, expanding their imperial goals and propping up druglords, warlords and rampant corruption...Now, thanks to our morally superior leadership...we are now in danger of having our international reputation permanently sullied as we turn a blind eye to the torture of detainees. Many of whom had nothing to do with the insurgency.     How does any of this serve our national interests?     http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/727879-canada-shamed-on-afghan-prisoner-torture     " I'm sorry, but I find posts like yours to be entirely unhelpful. Not only are they not constructive, they are actually so ignorant as to be destructive.     The issue of prisoners we've already handed over being tortured is a real one that needs addressing. And by all accounts it certainly looks like a blind eye was turned to it at high levels within our government. That's a problem and it needs to be brought forward. It does NOT need to be tied into anti-American conspiracy theories about imperialist conquest. You discredit the real problem by that association, which is a real shame. Although from your post, it seems you really don't care about that anyways and are instead interested in bashing America, the Great Satan.     "How does any of this serve our national interests?"     Well, you won't see it on network news, but it serves western interests by keeping Pakistan, and it's nuclear arsenal, from falling under the control of Islamic extremists allied with the Taliban. Stealing Afghanistan's 'vast' supply of natural resources is just another ludicrous conspiracy. If there is any real conspiracy, it is one of silence over the real reason anybody in the west ever cared at all about Afghanistan. The reason for the silence is not to keep us in the dark, but instead to avoid further destabilizing Pakistan. Just as the Taliban were hosting Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, over in Pakistan Musharaff and his military where allied with Islamic extremists tied to both Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. The message of Afghanistan was that leaders harboring those that would attack America would be held accountable as though they committed the attack themselves. Specifically, Musharraf(and by proxy all Pakistani leaders) was being told that the choice was to sever ties with the jihadists or else.     Or if you like shorter and simpler explanations, Afghanistan isn't about Turkmenistan's natural gas, it is about Pakistan's nukes. Of course, any American official saying that would lend great support to the extremists already working to destabilize Pakistan. "

Thanks BCglorf for some sanity  
 
soo tired of these posts that are so blind and ill constructed they make me not even want to dignify it with a reply  
 
great post dood

Threadkiller Gen. Kooblah ret. said "    bcglorf said "    swansong said "So on top of joining the US in their occupation of Afghanistan that has seen the deaths of thousands of civilians and displaced 100s of thousands more...all to support US goals of stealing resources on behalf on multi-national energy firms, expanding their imperial goals and propping up druglords, warlords and rampant corruption...Now, thanks to our morally superior leadership...we are now in danger of having our international reputation permanently sullied as we turn a blind eye to the torture of detainees. Many of whom had nothing to do with the insurgency.     How does any of this serve our national interests?     http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/727879-canada-shamed-on-afghan-prisoner-torture     " I'm sorry, but I find posts like yours to be entirely unhelpful. Not only are they not constructive, they are actually so ignorant as to be destructive.     The issue of prisoners we've already handed over being tortured is a real one that needs addressing. And by all accounts it certainly looks like a blind eye was turned to it at high levels within our government. That's a problem and it needs to be brought forward. It does NOT need to be tied into anti-American conspiracy theories about imperialist conquest. You discredit the real problem by that association, which is a real shame. Although from your post, it seems you really don't care about that anyways and are instead interested in bashing America, the Great Satan.     "How does any of this serve our national interests?"     Well, you won't see it on network news, but it serves western interests by keeping Pakistan, and it's nuclear arsenal, from falling under the control of Islamic extremists allied with the Taliban. Stealing Afghanistan's 'vast' supply of natural resources is just another ludicrous conspiracy. If there is any real conspiracy, it is one of silence over the real reason anybody in the west ever cared at all about Afghanistan. The reason for the silence is not to keep us in the dark, but instead to avoid further destabilizing Pakistan. Just as the Taliban were hosting Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, over in Pakistan Musharaff and his military where allied with Islamic extremists tied to both Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. The message of Afghanistan was that leaders harboring those that would attack America would be held accountable as though they committed the attack themselves. Specifically, Musharraf(and by proxy all Pakistani leaders) was being told that the choice was to sever ties with the jihadists or else.     Or if you like shorter and simpler explanations, Afghanistan isn't about Turkmenistan's natural gas, it is about Pakistan's nukes. Of course, any American official saying that would lend great support to the extremists already working to destabilize Pakistan. " Thanks BCglorf for some sanity     soo tired of these posts that are so blind and ill constructed they make me not even want to dignify it with a reply     great post dood "

It really seems futile some days so it's good to hear there are others just as bothered by these things.

Thankyou for a sensible post

thank you for your post! well said.

Joining in with a level of vacuity and snide condescension matched only by his toadying cheerleaders. One can always count on a couple of derogatory, personal attacks and the prerequisite mention of CONSPIRACY (the battle cry of the terminally uninformed or the bias challenged) to attempt to derail any discussion.  
 
And without a hint of irony “conspiracy” is used as a pejorative against me while being used later on to describe some hidden reasons for the murder of 1000s of civilians that the MSM is apparently keeping from the world. Apparently there are conspiracies and then there are CONSPIRACIES.  
 
Apparently UNOCAL and other energy giants didn't really bring high level Taliban members to Washington to be wined and dined and meet with government officials for several years up to mere months prior to 9/11. The same Taliban that are now somehow the Earth's scourge.  
 
I guess Hamid Karzai wasn't a senior advisor to UNOCAL and a top contact of the CIA.  
And I guess Karzai's ties with UNOCAL and the Bush administration weren’t the main reason why the CIA pushed him for Afghan leader over rival Abdul Haq, the assassinated former mujaheddin leader from Jalalabad, and the leadership of the Northern Alliance, apparently seen by Langley as being too close to the Russians and Iranians. Too bad for Haq that he had no apparent close ties to the U.S. oil industry and, as both a Pushtun and a northern Afghani, was popular with a wide cross-section of the Afghan people, including the Northern Alliance. Those credentials likely sealed his fate.  
 
Nor would the occupation have anything to do with recent reports from a whistle blower at the International Energy Agency that…  
”The world is much closer to running out of oil than official estimates admit, according to a whistleblower at the International Energy Agency who claims it has been deliberately underplaying a looming shortage for fear of triggering panic buying. The senior official claims the US has played an influential role in encouraging the watchdog to underplay the rate of decline from existing oil fields while overplaying the chances of finding new reserves.”  
 
And I guess James L. Jones, National Security Adviser to Obama didn't state on CNN to John King in Oct. of this year that there are less than 100 suspected Al Qaeda members in Afg with "no bases” and "no ability to launch attacks on us or our allies".  
 
If that is indeed the case what is our purpose for still being there? Wasn't that the stated reason for our participation? Oh right...Pakistan. Will that be the next battle ground?  
 
But you know what? I won't bother continuing when so many have clearly made up their minds without, apparently, even bothering to do the most rudimentary of research on the history of the region or the lead up to the current USSRian occupation.  
 
Always nice bickering with you, glorf.  
 
 
Edited by swansong, 2009-11-19 23:19:48

swansong said "So on top of joining the US in their occupation of Afghanistan that has seen the deaths of thousands of civilians and displaced 100s of thousands more...all to support US goals of stealing resources on behalf on multi-national energy firms, expanding their imperial goals and propping up druglords, warlords and rampant corruption...Now, thanks to our morally superior leadership...we are now in danger of having our international reputation permanently sullied as we turn a blind eye to the torture of detainees. Many of whom had nothing to do with the insurgency.     How does any of this serve our national interests?     http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/727879-canada-shamed-on-afghan-prisoner-torture     "

never bothered to read much past your first lines - opinions are fine if you want mine on any issue be more balanced in your op. here goes some  
You should have mentioned NATO somewhere in that up front Blurb. So us and 35 or so countries are according to you are the bad guys.  
 
Grrr this issue irks me  
 
For me it was not that they were a safe house for the bad guys. It was the utter destruction of the Religious statues etc . Throw in any part of how they treat women etc. Thats all internal country issues and can or could be ignored by people that do not care outside the country.  
 
Then as now I see it- these clowns want to export - or as in the old cold war days expand their influence. See Pakistan. That was happening long Before NATO stepped in  
 
If you want to think occupiers oil and hidden agenda fine.  
So anyways healthy debate is okay this though??

If you'd be so kind, please explain who in America is going to profit from a gas pipeline through Afghanistan? A pipeline that will require a massively expensive war, and one that will continually be victim to attacks and the resulting shutdown and repair costs. It seems hard for that kind of plan to break even over any time line, much less to have enough profit to corrupt or buy off not 1 but 2 American presidents and enough of their supporting politicians to maintain a difficult and expensive war(even while admitting Cheney might come cheap).  
 
I'll raise your Karzai and Haq with Bhutto, Hamid Gul and AQ Khan. All Pakistani nationals holding far more power than anyone you've mentioned and all very important to American interests. Al-Qaeda has taken credit for assassinating Bhutto, Paksitan's only ever female leader and the first ever female leader of any Islamic state. Seems that Al-Qaeda has a pretty strong base in Nuclear armed Pakistan to not only attempt such a thing, but to even be willing to publicly take credit for it after wards. Hamid Gul is the former head of the ISI(Paksitan's equivalent to the CIA)), and a strong supporter of the Taliban still today as the Taliban attacks Pakistan's government. AQ Khan I believe should be well enough known.  
 
I'm not pretending UNOCAL and pipeline plans never existed. I'm stating that the tremendous threat to Pakistan and it's nuclear arsenal loam much larger to America's self interest, and our own for that matter.  
 
Wasn't that the stated reason for our participation? Oh right...Pakistan. Will that be the next battle ground?  
If you don't see the importance of Pakistan in the initial decision to go into Afghanistan then you really should go back and take a closer look at the piece of the picture you've been missing. And no, it's not the next battle ground either. It seems you've not been following that it is ALREADY the battle ground, and Pakistan's military and people have been fighting a very real war against the Taliban and militants in Pakistan for some time now.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by bcglorf, 2009-11-20 07:52:40

is why this story is even relevent today. Did we not already go through all this back in 2007. Changes were made so what's different now? I just don't get it ????

SJK said "is why this story is even relevent today. Did we not already go through all this back in 2007. Changes were made so what's different now? I just don't get it ???? "

It is relevant because it shows that they either hid stuff from Canadians, lied about it to Canadians, or are just incompetent in their jobs. Wither way, as the politicians bosses we should know and hold them accountable.

do we expect the Gov. to share everything (Military/security etc.) with us and the rest of the world. If we're looking to place blame we certainly can't lay it all at the feet of the Conservatives. Oh let me guess, this never happened under Liberal rule right. Why is this guy making so much noise about this now when we new this back in 2007? There is nothing new here.