Discussions

I used that expression but in a way that wasn't meant to be insulting.  
 
I agree, this is probably one of the better conversation on Ebrandon. This is a conversation on something that had a major impact on our community which we all live in. I would like to see more suggestion on how to fix the issues at hand, rather then banter back and forth like most of us tend to do. These threads usually turn into a pissing match which solves no issues.  
 
Apologies if you took offense to my response. So with that being said, anyone have suggestions/ideas on how we can make progress with the drug problem? Maybe Mayor Crest needs a reminder there's an election coming up?

MichaelP said "I used that expression but in a way that wasn't meant to be insulting.     I agree, this is probably one of the better conversation on Ebrandon. This is a conversation on something that had a major impact on our community which we all live in. I would like to see more suggestion on how to fix the issues at hand, rather then banter back and forth like most of us tend to do. These threads usually turn into a pissing match which solves no issues.     Apologies if you took offense to my response. So with that being said, anyone have suggestions/ideas on how we can make progress with the drug problem? Maybe Mayor Crest needs a reminder there's an election coming up? "

It could have been me referenced. I am trying to figure out where Hoho is getting info from. Says the horses mouth. Meth has been growing ever since I moved here in 2000. I don't see where there is any relation in Canada where organized crime is pushing more meth onto people because the government is legalizing pot. If Hoho wants politicians to step up what does that mean? Where are you trying to go with that statement?

I want the politicians to push the police to rid these drugs out of our City. Like I have said in my previous posts, I know dealers in this city who have been doing it for years without being caught. Why is that? Surely I am not the only one who knows these people.  
 
Also, the Mayor should hold someone accountable when charges get dropped on issues like this. Again, revert back to my post on the 2014 drug bust. This was Brandons largest drug bust, & all charges for the local dealers get dropped... After how many years of investigations, and how much money/resources wasted?! For what? Who was held accountable? How about the drug bust in March of this year? Still in court system, but insider information is that case will be dropped as well. Politicians need to start holding all public sector employees accountable. If we are paying officers 100K+ a year I would expect them to do their jobs at their fullest. I have full respect for law enforcement, I just want accountability. Is that to much to ask?

Ms.Daisy said "    MichaelP said "    Ms.Daisy said "    MichaelP said "One thing that has always boggled my brain is the fact that I could name a hand full of local drug dealers that have been in the business with many years without being caught. Brandon isnt that big, the local police have got to know who is doing what. Whats worse is when they finally do catch someone, the charges get dropped.     Remember the big drug bust back in 2014? Police caught local guys with $2 Million dollars worth of drugs & charges where dropped! That's a complete waste of time and money.     https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/charges-stayed-after-massive-drug-bust-282675911.html " Poor policing?? You're joking right? Its not the police that let Mr. Venn off its our pathetic justice system.     Also you know a handful of drug dealers in Brandon??? Might be time to find some better friends... " It is the police's job to build a case and bring forth concrete evidence to the courts. I know for a fact the police had been watching the accused for a very long time. The evidence wasn't solid enough in court and that's why the charges where dropped. That is not any judges or lawyers fault. It is a fault that lies with the people investigating the suspects & that would be the police. So don't try with the poor justice system excuse.     Who said they where my friends? Brandon isn't very big, and when you have a social lifestyle its not hard to find out whos doing what. I'm willing to bet that I'm not the only one on this forum who knows a dealer or two. " Oh I am sure there are lots that know a dealer or two. I will give you that one. But you know a whole handful. You must be quite the social butterfly! "

your comment is relevant to the drug problems how?  
 
Who cares if he is a social butterfly?  
 
We do not go out often at all, and I can also name a couple of dealers in this town.  
 
Back to the topic.

In Portugal, they had a very severe public health emergency with drug addiction. They decided to decriminalize ALL drugs, and to FUND MORE TREATMENT.  
 
The result has been extremely positive.  
 
They approached drug addiction as a health issue. They increased treatment. I feel that increasing the availability of treatment for addiction and mental health is key in addressing drug abuse and the social effects of addiction and abuse. In a study of East Vancouver drug addicted street involved people, the overwhelmingly most common thread amongst addicts was NOT poverty, broken families, medical problems, family history, ethnic background, etc etc... It was childhood trauma.  
 
Remember that when you are encountering a person who is addicted to drugs, you are more than likely dealing with someone who has been traumatized in their childhood. Treating trauma is the most significant thing we can do, and people need to live long enough for them to receive treatment, which means clean needles, safe injection sites, and other harm reduction strategies.  
 
Instead of judging people because they have a drug abuse problem, try some empathy. Everyone is different and has different experiences.  
 
If you're thinking of your tax dollars, you will pay less to treat trauma and mental health issues NOW, sooner than later, than when the person goes into the justice system, when their children go into CFS and have their own traumas, when they are ill and cannot work, etc etc.

MichaelP said "I want the politicians to push the police to rid these drugs out of our City. Like I have said in my previous posts, I know dealers in this city who have been doing it for years without being caught. Why is that? Surely I am not the only one who knows these people.     Also, the Mayor should hold someone accountable when charges get dropped on issues like this. Again, revert back to my post on the 2014 drug bust. This was Brandons largest drug bust, & all charges for the local dealers get dropped... After how many years of investigations, and how much money/resources wasted?! For what? Who was held accountable? How about the drug bust in March of this year? Still in court system, but insider information is that case will be dropped as well. Politicians need to start holding all public sector employees accountable. If we are paying officers 100K+ a year I would expect them to do their jobs at their fullest. I have full respect for law enforcement, I just want accountability. Is that to much to ask? "

Police can only do so much. I am sure they figured they had an open and closed case with the link you provided regarding the 2 mill. bust. But leave it to a lawyer that looks for loopholes in the system to get guilty people free.  
 
Police know who is dealing. They don't want to bust them. They are watching them. They want the suppliers, not dealers. Why bust a dealer they know about when 2 more will open doors 5 min after a bust. Now they have to resource time finding the new dealers. Watch the current, gather intel, go for the sharks above.

Why make excuses? Don't you want to see your money being used efficiently.  
. That was a major case that involved parties all across Canada. This wasn't your petty dealer you call up for a weekend hit. The police had years of sitting gathering Intel. It wasn't loopholes that got the case dropped, it was lack of evidence.  
 
You don't think someone should be held accountable when poor performance is an issue. Either fire the people involved or train them so this doesn't happen. I have ZERO empathy for dealers. May I remind you that it's the low level dealers who infest our elementary school with drugs.

What about the rest of the busts they do? Seems you want to focus on just that one case. CAn you find for us what the evidence was to have the charges stayed?  
 
As for money used efficiently:  
https://www.brandonsun.com/local/Two-arrested-in-downtown-drug-bust-476397733.html  
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/brandon-cocaine-charges-1.4403820  
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/police-raid-brandon-home-wednesday-1.4384257  
 
Every day I read about a bust in the paper, usually small scales of users but occasionally you get your larger dealer.

Actually I'm a little familiar with the first article you posted and I'm alsmot certain that ones going to be dropped. We will have to wait and see for final ruling.

I've been following along with this conversation and have learned some new stuff and raised an eyebrow at others.  
 
As someone who has a loved one struggling with meth I've had to learn a thing or two about Brandon MB when it comes to the illegal drugs being sold here.  
 
Firstly, I like the conversation about the government's involvement. Wouldn't put it past them. Everyone is suspect in my opinion.  
 
Secondly, meth may have been here in prior years, but it has surged across Canada in 2017. The year before marijuana is to be legalized. Coincidence? Maybe.  
 
Thirdly, I've sat in boardrooms in this community and listened to business people talk about the drug dealers in our community (restaurant owners). There's laughter about what's going on and I find that disgusting. Laughing at something that is killing people. Gross.  
 
Lastly, prior to my being forced to get wise to what is happening in our community I was blissfully ignorant to what is going on here. Knowing what I know today, I'd give anything to have the info erased from my brain. It's more than anyone needs to know.

In the 10 people charged article I’m 99% certain a few of those people, if not all, got away with no/minimal charges.  
Trafficking charges seem to always get dropped to possession which is no where near as harsh, because there isn’t enough evidence.  
I as well know drug dealers, many, who have been taken to court for things that they HAVE done. And got away free because there was not enough evidence. Doesn’t make sense to me. Why waste your time if nothings going to happen anyways. Though even if they did get put in jail, it’s not going to stop them. Jail isn’t teaching these addicts how to better their life and what to do when they get out. It’s setting them up for failure once again.  
We need to start putting our money towards treatments, not punishment, since this is something most can not control anymore and punished or not they can’t stop.

I absolutely agree with you. We shouldn't be jailing the end users. Putting somebody in jail with an addiction with other criminals is not going to help them. People in jail get bored and find ways to pass the time. Consuming drugs is a way to pass time that inmates chose to take. Doing this also creates an economy within the jails. This only en-dangerous other inmates and the officers working at the prison.  
 
Drug users don't belong in jails, they need treatment. I wonder what the cost of jailing a drug addict is compared to providing health treatment.

I guess my comment was about as relevant as your reply.  
 
The thread is "Drugs in Westman" and someone replied they knew a handful of dealers. To me that is more then just a couple. They also said that they meet these drug dealers from having a "social life". I'd like to think I have a fairly decent social life and I don't know any drug dealers. The only one I knew is a kid that tried to sell my child a bag of weed at school but he was taken care of. Sorry I don't know all these drug dealers that you all know. I guess my social life isn't as exciting as I thought.  
 
Anyways I will let the boys get back to their debate.

to drug abuse, alcoholism we cannot expect the Government or Police to solve this problem. We as society and a community need to look at where the problem started and why. The root of the problem starts with the dynamics of the family and our school system. YES - our family and schools are to blame - not the Government or police. Our individual families and schools are the only ones that can solve this problem. Why are people turning to drugs and alchol - is it for recreational purposes or is it to temporarily escape the problems of society and reality. I'm a senior citizen and when I graduated from high school - that grade 12 diploma actually meant something. Today - that diploma isn't worth the paper its written on. When I graduated from university I was considered part of an elite portion of our society that advanced their education. All the students in my class had 10-15 job offers long before we wrote our final exams. A lot of todays students are graduating from university, college or technical school with thousands of dollars in student loans that need to be repayed and they can't find a job that pays more then $10-12.00 an hour. A lot of young people are still living at home with their parents because they can't afford to live on their own. We need to change this situation. Change will need to start within our school system, whereas teachers will teach each and every student that they have a creative mind and with that creative mind comes opportunity. So many of todays students graduate grade 12 and don't know how to write a resume, how to conduct themselves during a job interview, or how to be creative and start a business on a shoe string budget. This is something they should learn in school - so lets start there.

Someone asked earlier what can be done? It all starts with conversations like this one, combined with education, awareness, and decreasing stigma in a respectful and caring manner. Mental illness is not a joke.  
 
The police, our Mayor are doing the best they can considering the magnitude of this issue in Westman. We will not arrest our way out of this crisis.  
 
Holistic health, prevention, long term treatment, detox, and YES, Funding is what will allow those things to come to fruition.  
 
We support 170 families in the area that are coping with a loved ones substance abuse to drugs. There are likely 5 more to each one in the group that due to shame will not step forward for help. If the families are embarrassed can you imagine how the addict feels with the isolation, pain and shame to a disease of their mind that they cannot get help and support with??  
 
Our group, Westman Families of Addicts is fundraising for a Recovery Coaching Program that would alleviate many resources and provide support to police and front line staff at the ER.  
https://ca.gofundme.com/westman-families-of-addicts  
Unfortunately we need funding to do that.  
 
There are many agencies that are supporting addicts the best they can with very limited resources. Samaritan House. CMHA. Teen Challenge (who just opened a thrift store in the old Brick store downtown) that would love your donations while spring cleaning! Those are just a few.  
 
This crisis is of epic proportions, and now with the introduction of fentanyl to the community will get worse.  
 
Clearly the "war on drugs" has not helped, but what has helped is harm reduction programs, holistic and preventative medicine, and a community rallying together to foster wellness. There is no reason why in a community our size we cannot be the leaders in treatment and recovery!

Viv said "    pinkflamingos said "I have a different type of response for the original post, because it's clear you've rejected the fact that addiction is a mental health issue and not a choice: because we have socialized healthcare, it only makes sense that we should want a healthy populace. Both in terms of funding and our country's social dynamic. If we are going to spend money treating the lung cancer of the people who choose to smoke, or the type two diabetes of the people who choose to overeat, we need to take care of the people who make other bad decisions too.     I personally do not believe that drug addiction is as simple as some people make crap decisions and some don't. But even if you do, we are not an 'every man for himself' country. " Your response really changes how I feel about it. I’m glad I started this thread. I didn’t look at it as a mental health problem. I guess I’ve been looking at mental health problems more superficially and not as the cause. Your last statement hits home. In Canada, we help each other.   Thank you "

that doesn't have some kind of mental health issue. Lots of people suffer daily and don't turn into alcoholics or drug addicts!  
 
I wish people that suffer mentally could get the help they need, in most cases they are assessed and sent home, lots of times the worst happens and they meet their demise because they take their own life.  
 
Where is their help? People who attempt suicide need help too!

Said it before and I’ll say it again, these are somebody’s children. People being narrow minded and shrugging off the problem because it doesn’t personally effect you is a terrible terrible way to treat another human being. Shame on you.  
tried it in the first placwrong about

pinkflamingos said "I have a different type of response for the original post, because it's clear you've rejected the fact that addiction is a mental health issue and not a choice: because we have socialized healthcare, it only makes sense that we should want a healthy populace. Both in terms of funding and our country's social dynamic. If we are going to spend money treating the lung cancer of the people who choose to smoke, or the type two diabetes of the people who choose to overeat, we need to take care of the people who make other bad decisions too.     I personally do not believe that drug addiction is as simple as some people make crap decisions and some don't. But even if you do, we are not an 'every man for himself' country. "

What is your opinion on those who are disabled. Are they a drain on society as well. Some are just unlucky enough that it has been passed down genetically and there is nothing that can be done. Myself for instance am on disability but I am having a hard time job that can do with my disability. I would love to go back to the career that I had prior before I went on medical leave.  
 
But unfortunately businesses see a disabled person and don't see the skills they can offer.

pinkflamingos said "I have a different type of response for the original post, because it's clear you've rejected the fact that addiction is a mental health issue and not a choice: because we have socialized healthcare, it only makes sense that we should want a healthy populace. Both in terms of funding and our country's social dynamic. If we are going to spend money treating the lung cancer of the people who choose to smoke, or the type two diabetes of the people who choose to overeat, we need to take care of the people who make other bad decisions too.     I personally do not believe that drug addiction is as simple as some people make crap decisions and some don't. But even if you do, we are not an 'every man for himself' country. "

about lung cancer, some people have smoked for half their life and never got lung cancer. Diabetes doesn't come totally from overeating either.  
 
The article in the bdn sun yesterday talked about how a meth user defrauded businesses to get money for his habit. So now we have to get on it and help, pronto.  
 
Over the years there has been many stories about another addiction, gambling, and the lengths some gambling addicts go to have cash, stealing from their family and workplaces. And what do people think of these addicts? Just call them losers and have a laugh.  
 
Is excessive gambling not considered a mental health issue too? If not, why not?

The death of Phillip Seymour Hoffman as a result of drug addiction has provoked many thoughtful, sympathetic responses in the media, from people in recovery who understand how hard it is to wrestle with addiction, as well as from scientifically informed journalists who understand that addiction is a disease. But it has also prompted others to express the age-old notion than drug use is a choice, and that those who die as a consequence of their drug use are just reaping the consequences of their freely chosen actions. It is unfortunate that that view persists in our society, despite the decades of scientific research soundly disproving it.  
 
Choices do not happen without a brain—it is the mechanism of choice. The quality of a person’s choices depends on the health of that mechanism. However much we may wish that a person’s choices were free in all instances, it is simply a fact that an addicted person’s failures in the realm of choice are the product of a brain that has become greatly compromised—it is readily apparent when we scan their brains. Even if taking a drug for the first time is a “free” choice, the progression of brain changes that occurs after that involves the weakening of circuits in the prefrontal cortex and elsewhere that are necessary for exerting self-control and resisting the temptations of drug use. Once addiction takes hold, there is greatly diminished capacity, on one’s own, to stop using. This is why psychiatry recognizes addiction as a disease of the brain, and why professional intervention is needed to treat it in most instances.  
 
Moreover, even the “freely willed” first choice to take a drug cannot be the basis for judgment and stigma against people suffering from addictions. Matters of choice and lifestyle—what you eat, how active you are, where you live—may contribute to the risk for, or even directly cause, a wide range of medical conditions, including chronic diseases like heart disease, type 2 diabetes, and several cancers. We do not withhold or impede treatment of people suffering from those conditions, even if their health may have turned out differently had they made different choices at various points in their lives.  
 
There is no way of precisely predicting which freely chosen adolescent drink, or cigarette, or experimentation with an illegal substance, opened the door to a later loss of free-choice capacity in a person who has become addicted. But once addiction is established, the sufferer from this disease cannot will themselves to be healthy and avoid drugs any more than a person with heart disease can will their heart back to perfect functioning, or a person with diabetes can will their body’s insulin response to return to normal.  
Thus, those who say “it was their own choice” after a person dies of an overdose fail to grasp that an addicted person’s brain has a disrupted choice mechanism. And as revealed by Hoffman’s tragic, ultimately fatal relapse into drug taking, the neuronal disruptions in the brain of an addicted person can persist even after decades of sobriety. Speaking of “free choice” is simply not useful when trying to understand an individual’s addiction or its consequences, as addiction is precisely a disease that disrupts the neuronal circuits that enable us to exert free choice.

I was going to post this but you did  
 
I find that these threads want to find someone to blame- we parents who have addicts, schools, society... let's decide to drop the blame game, it is too complex for us to get a handle on. If specialists in the field can't agree can we cast proper blame?  
 
As parents we did the best we could. Our children were raised in a caring loving home. Neither my husband or I did drugs, drank, were abusive. We put a priority on our children. BUT we have an addict who is on meth. We cannot afford to have her apprehended by an interventionist and place in one of the best rehab centres in manitoba. The intervention is 10000 plus the cost of hotels, transportation etc from Toronto to get her to Gimli. Then it will be about 28000 for 1 month plus 10000 per month for rehab after that first month. They say that it is at least 6 months to get into a higher success rate.  
 
So we face incarceration for crimes to get drugs. Our addict is not a sophisticated criminal, she gets caught all the time  
 
I don't know what it costs provincial but federally it costs 117000 per year per inmate.  
 
One of my suggestions is for the government to transform one of our jails (low security like BCI or Milner Ridge into a rehab. The estimation of corrections are that at any given time 30 to 50 % of inmates are addicts. The courts do not do mandated court rehab because it takes away the I individuals choice...  
 
Reread Dunno's article. Are addicts able with their damaged brains able to make these choices?

The war on drugs starts at home. As parents it’s incumbent on ourselves to ensure that our children live a healthy lifestyle. I’ve had 2 daughters attempt suicide, both with pres:cription drugs. Now one is heavily involved in drugs and is now a model academic student. The other is graduating high school this year and is still on a path to a healthier lifestyle. Parents really need to involve themselves more in their children’s lives. Both of my daughters were affected hard by our divorce...but they’ve both moved back with me from their mothers home, where care was absent.  
 
Getting involved with sports and a chase mic’s gives people both a purpose and a sense of belonging within the community. If they’re left to their own devices, their mental and emotional struggles are intensified. I refuse to allow their friends, society or even the education decide their path...that comes from a strong family.  
 
Just my $0.02

My apologies, I’m on the mobile app so there’s no option to edit my post. My daughter is NOT heavily involved with drugs! She’s heavily involved with sports! From September to May she plays volleyball, and in the summer she attends camps. Sports has really turned her life around....  
 
Oh, and an edit function and quote function would be nice...

I have no solution or no blame to whom but I find this scary for the future. Reading this sounds that half or more people have issues or problems that say need to seek help and in need for treatments. Who will pay for these treatments. No one is responsible for their life choices or actions or addictions whatever word you may call it. Funds??? Money coming from where? In 20 years down the road from now if more and more people have issues and can't work (or don't feel to work) then who is paying? No one seem to afford nothing.

That mental health issue is behind every addiction. Yes when it comes to booze some het addicted more easily than others, but for others it is a choice to drink enough frequently enough to become an alcoholic. Myself? I could probably get addicted to alcohol but I do not allow myself to drink it very often-so it won't happen.  
 
Now meth, coke and heroin-all are very addictive. I don't know if anyone can choose to not be addicted once they decide to try one of those 3 or 4 times? A bad choice 2. Or 3 or 4 times and you no longer have the option of deciding "no more"- not unless it is with professional help. And it is poor choices in many cases-get together with friends, get talked into a few drinks too many? Pop some pills, just to experiment and see how good it feels? Snort a line of cocaine because hey you will feel good? Or try this, it is just heroine? It isnt always mental illness or childhood trauma that makes people say yes to those offers. Very often it is just foolishness. The addicts I have known were not traumatised or mentally ill, they just did not have a clue some substances are so addictive. Some people get hooked after 1 dose. Just say NO - it shouldn't be that hard, except some people simply do not think beyond the here and now.

Cassie1668 you actually might not know if your friends or acquaintances who are addicts have been traumatized or if they have a mental illness.  
 
Just saying.

I’m not sure how anyone can argue about addictions. You choose to ingest the drug knowing full well what it can do. I’m sorry but in today’s day and age if you don’t know what drugs can do to you, there’s something wrong with you. So, knowing what the drugs cans do to a persons body and knowing how they can destroy lives...and you STILL choose to do them? Nope. I don’t feel sorry for you at all. Be an adult, put your big boy pants on, and don’t do drugs. It’s not hard.

will do something about the issue when it begins to hit them in the pocket book. I for one will not be going down to the "HUB" to spend my dollars if I am going to need to step around dirty contaminated needles. See if you can attract businesses to the core if nobody wants to frequent their establishments. People have a choice to stay away from all mind altering substances, marijuana, meth, cocaine, tobacco, etc. Even alcohol. I don't want my tax dollars spent to provide clean needle centres or treatment. I want my dollars spent on enforcement. But I want to see the dollars allocated for enforcement spent on enforcement and not funneled to other police force operations or departments. I sometimes think police resources are not put in the proper locations. If they cannot find the product, they cannot use.  
 
Just my opinions. I am not an enabler.

Dan Forsythe said "will do something about the issue when it begins to hit them in the pocket book. I for one will not be going down to the "HUB" to spend my dollars if I am going to need to step around dirty contaminated needles. See if you can attract businesses to the core if nobody wants to frequent their establishments. People have a choice to stay away from all mind altering substances, marijuana, meth, cocaine, tobacco, etc. Even alcohol. I don't want my tax dollars spent to provide clean needle centres or treatment. I want my dollars spent on enforcement. But I want to see the dollars allocated for enforcement spent on enforcement and not funneled to other police force operations or departments. I sometimes think police resources are not put in the proper locations. If they cannot find the product, they cannot use.     Just my opinions. I am not an enabler. "

You can spend as much as you want on enforcement, it will not solve the problem. How about the US spending more than 51 billion a year on drug enforcement. The US is no where near having a control on drugs.  
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/news/2018/03/budget-2018-funding-for-the-opioids-crisis.html  
Canada has increased their spending on drugs. You will never stop the flow of drugs. You would need to search every person, vehicle, plane, etc. coming in and out of this city. It is not financially viable to expect a zero supply of drugs. Someone will always be there to fill the void. There are lots of people that have made the mistake and become addicted. Many would love treatment. Sometimes it is a 6 week waiting period for treatment, some give up waiting and go further into a downhill spiral. Police can only do so much. I tried for 7 years to kick the habit. If a system was in place to get in, recover, and become a positive role in society...that is cheaper than just spending money on policing. The price of treatment is a small cost to rehabilitating the person and bringing them back to a working member of society paying taxes. The taxes I paid in the last 21 years have more than paid for my treatment to recover.

I don’t think the people that are all ‘be an adult, don’t do drugs when you know what they’ll do to your body’ know what mental health issues are.  
A lot of the time substance abuse is because of underlying mental health issues. Whether you can see it on the outside or not.  
Most of these people are in such a bad state of mind they either do not care to live anymore, or they will go to any lengths to get rid of the terrible thoughts and things they go through daily.  
They see other users with underlying issues happier because of the drugs, so they decide to try it as well hoping it will help them too.  
Treatment is needed. Not punishment. No amount of punishment is going to help because they just don’t care about living and right/wrong anymore.  
And to the people who say ‘these junkies are putting themselves in this situation and want to die, let them die’, you need to think about their families and what would you do if someone you were close to went down this road, after knowing the sweet innocent child they once were.