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Brandon Wages and Cost of Living

Brandon Wages and Cost of Living

Snook
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 118

Snook
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 118

Brandon Wages and Cost of Living
8/20/2015 at 9:06 AM

Lately there has been much discussion over cost of housing, cost of utilities, living expenses in general.

What are some of the STARTING wages in Brandon?...what are some of the plants, box stores etc. paying to start for non-trade/non-professional employees. There will be positions with a minimum wage start, but are there other places that pay above minimum wage? Alberta has been talking about a $15. minimum wage...but what really is their average starting wage currently?
Amaxinlin
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 683

Amaxinlin
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 683

$10.70 min wage
8/20/2015 at 10:17 AM

Ours is $10.70 moving up to $11 in October.
Jellybean
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1378

Jellybean
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1378

.......
8/20/2015 at 10:59 AM

Most retail/restaurant, etc. positions will start around the minimum wage mark. For professional positions, it just depends on the industry you work in.

The cost of living compared to wages is way out of proportion though as compared to even 30 years ago.
Wage increases have not kept up with the rising costs of housing, groceries, etc. It makes it almost impossible to do things like be a stay at home mom, because (unless you have a very high paying job), there is almost no way to live on one income if you have a family. Then you get the daycare shortage problem, etc.

A good example is housing prices have roughly quadrupled in the last 30 years or so, but minimum wage has only roughly doubled in that time.
thevoiceofreason
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 53

thevoiceofreason
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 53

whats really bad
8/20/2015 at 11:05 AM

What sucks about the cost of living in Brandon is that it is now on par with Winnipeg but the salaries are considerably less, so it costs the same to live in winnipeg where you can make more money. Local industry has not adapted to the cost of living and companies purposely pay less because "we are a small town". Unfortunately we do not pay "small town" costs to live here. All this does is chase skilled empoyees out of the city and causes skilled labour shortages like we're seing now. Brandon businesses and industry need to get with the times and bring pay in line with cost of living before we lose all our skilled workers. I have seen many of our best and brightest workers at my company leave for the city, with their positions remaining vacant due to a poor labour market. This maybe doesn't affect much at the minimum wage level, but there is a skilled labour crisis in Brandon at the moment with huge demand for their services coming from bigger centers.

Edited by thevoiceofreason, 2015-08-20 11:12:27
CommonTater
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CommonTater
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Unfortunately
8/20/2015 at 11:11 AM

Unfortunately, there is a significant percentage of Brandon consumers that refuse to pay the inflated prices required to support the higher wages. Brandon shoppers are generally pretty cheap/thrifty. Note I didn't say all shoppers.

thevoiceofreason
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 53

thevoiceofreason

Joined: Jun 2010

Posts: 53

...

8/20/2015 at 11:15 AM

CommonTater said "Unfortunately, there is a significant percentage of Brandon consumers that refuse to pay the inflated prices required to support the higher wages. Brandon shoppers are generally pretty cheap/thrifty. Note I didn't say all shoppers. "

The reason consumers are thrifty is because their inflated mortgages, rent and property taxes have left very little disposable income. It's not that people are cheap it's just they have little disposable income. There is a disconnect between the cost of housing and Brandon wages. People are having to take out 300k mortgages when they can't really afford them. An entire city of house poor consumers.

plus zero
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plus zero
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But
8/20/2015 at 11:18 AM

why people always look at what other provinces get paid for their wages? Some provinces may pay more for living expenses. I am pretty sure that every employers have employees no matter how much extra in their wages they will always find a reason to buy something. Some can't hold a dime in their life.

CommonTater
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CommonTater

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Cool

8/20/2015 at 11:22 AM

thevoiceofreason said "

CommonTater said "Unfortunately, there is a significant percentage of Brandon consumers that refuse to pay the inflated prices required to support the higher wages. Brandon shoppers are generally pretty cheap/thrifty. Note I didn't say all shoppers. "

The reason consumers are thrifty is because their inflated mortgages, rent and property taxes have left very little disposable income. It's not that people are cheap it's just they have little disposable income. There is a disconnect between the cost of housing and Brandon wages. People are having to take out 300k mortgages when they can't really afford them. An entire city of house poor consumers. "

Person A has an inflated mortgage so they will shop out of town/country ensuring that person B can't even get into a mortgage they can't afford anyway. Works alright for person A but not so much for person B.

Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5039

Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5039

stats?
8/20/2015 at 2:02 PM

Does anyone have stats to back up the assertion that we pay the same here for housing compared to Winnipeg?

Because I have lots of family in Winnipeg, and I have to tell you that what my money buys me here is nothing compared to what I would buy in Winnipeg. Unless I wanted to live in a totally dodgy part of Winnipeg (note: "dodgy" in Winnipeg is very different than "dodgy" in Brandon. Trust me.)

Housing affordability is an issue in every. single. city. in Canada. I'm not sure why anyone expects Brandon to be different. Wages have not kept pace with living expenses, period.

Abbysmum
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5039

Abbysmum

Joined: Mar 2009

Posts: 5039

re: living on one income

8/20/2015 at 2:12 PM

Jellybean said "Most retail/restaurant, etc. positions will start around the minimum wage mark. For professional positions, it just depends on the industry you work in.

The cost of living compared to wages is way out of proportion though as compared to even 30 years ago.
Wage increases have not kept up with the rising costs of housing, groceries, etc. It makes it almost impossible to do things like be a stay at home mom, because (unless you have a very high paying job), there is almost no way to live on one income if you have a family. Then you get the daycare shortage problem, etc.

A good example is housing prices have roughly quadrupled in the last 30 years or so, but minimum wage has only roughly doubled in that time. "

From what I understand, part of the reason WHY we're in the predicament regarding unable to live on one wage is partially due to women entering the workforce in droves. Not only did it substantially increase the number of people in the workforce very quickly (making it less necessary to pay a competitive wage to attract employees), it also caused a massive increase in consumer spending, partially because of the increase in household income but there were other factors there too.

We're sold "needs" that we don't necessarily need to have. If more people reevaluated their "needs" and adjusted their lifestyle accordingly, and crunched numbers (when I did it, with the difference in daycare, difference in CCTB, income tax, etc, my $30/hr job became $5/hr take home), they would see that having a parent stay home is doable in many more situations than is commonly believed.

I will try to dredge up the information on the income thing & post.

Jellybean
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1378

Jellybean

Joined: May 2010

Posts: 1378

.......

8/20/2015 at 2:48 PM

Abbysmum said "

Jellybean said "Most retail/restaurant, etc. positions will start around the minimum wage mark. For professional positions, it just depends on the industry you work in.

The cost of living compared to wages is way out of proportion though as compared to even 30 years ago.
Wage increases have not kept up with the rising costs of housing, groceries, etc. It makes it almost impossible to do things like be a stay at home mom, because (unless you have a very high paying job), there is almost no way to live on one income if you have a family. Then you get the daycare shortage problem, etc.

A good example is housing prices have roughly quadrupled in the last 30 years or so, but minimum wage has only roughly doubled in that time. "

From what I understand, part of the reason WHY we're in the predicament regarding unable to live on one wage is partially due to women entering the workforce in droves. Not only did it substantially increase the number of people in the workforce very quickly (making it less necessary to pay a competitive wage to attract employees), it also caused a massive increase in consumer spending, partially because of the increase in household income but there were other factors there too.

We're sold "needs" that we don't necessarily need to have. If more people reevaluated their "needs" and adjusted their lifestyle accordingly, and crunched numbers (when I did it, with the difference in daycare, difference in CCTB, income tax, etc, my $30/hr job became $5/hr take home), they would see that having a parent stay home is doable in many more situations than is commonly believed.

I will try to dredge up the information on the income thing & post. "

This is part of the reason we chose that I would stay home with the kids until they were all in school full time. The amount of money I would be left with after having to pay for daycare, etc. would be very little or even nothing if I were to work. So, why am I going to work to pay someone else to raise my children.

Living on one income for us is very difficult, but we evaluate all of our spending, and make sacrifices. We do not have all kinds of extra's, food is home cooked, vehicles are not new, and I wait for sales on necessities like children's clothing, etc.

Most people do not sit down and do the actual calculations to see the difference between staying home vs. working though.

somebody
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 17

somebody
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 17

interest
8/20/2015 at 3:35 PM

I'm always interested in what people consider a very high wage.
Look at borrowing rates. They likely close to a quarter of what they were 30 years ago, hence more money left for principal.

Jellybean
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1378

Jellybean

Joined: May 2010

Posts: 1378

.....

8/20/2015 at 3:56 PM

somebody said "I'm always interested in what people consider a very high wage.
Look at borrowing rates. They likely close to a quarter of what they were 30 years ago, hence more money left for principal. "

Do the math though, even at a higher interest rate, a house the for 100,000 back then was still cheaper in terms of mortgage payments than a house for 400,000 at a lower interest rate today.

Even if more was going towards interest, the payments alone made it affordable to buy a house.

somebody
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 17

somebody
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 17

info
8/20/2015 at 4:09 PM

1980 min wage $3.15/hr
2015 min wage $11.00/hr

1980 mortgage $100,000 @ 13.5%
25 yr biweekly $569.02

2015 mortgage $300,000 @ 3.0%
25 yr biweekly $709.87
Jellybean
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1378

Jellybean
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1378

.......
8/20/2015 at 4:21 PM

somebody said "1980 min wage $3.15/hr
2015 min wage $11.00/hr

1980 mortgage $100,000 @ 13.5%
25 yr biweekly $569.02

2015 mortgage $300,000 @ 3.0%
25 yr biweekly $709.87 "

You have to take in to consideration what that money got you in 1980, vs. 2015.

In 1980, $100,000 got you a very nice brand new built home including the price of land, etc.
In 2015, $300,000 gets you a used house that needs work.

A person making minimum wage in 1980 had a better chance of getting in to the housing market buying a $40,000 used house, than a person making minimum wage now trying to get a used house in the $200-300,000 range.
Adam

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Adam
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 15663

Numbers
8/20/2015 at 5:50 PM

FWIW, numbers below are gleaned from Moneysense's yearly cities ranking that was released in June. Doesn't have starting wage, but gives a chance to use their data to compare Brandon to Winnipeg and the four largest Sask cities on a few indicators that might give some food for thought for this thread. In a perfect world it would be Census info, but the most recent data on that is getting pretty long in the tooth (2010).....

From the Moneysense feature:
---------------------------
[b]Brandon[/b]
Median household income: $65,228
Average household discretionary income: $37,524.37
Average value of primary real estate: $248,383
Average property tax: $1969
Property tax to household income: 2.5%

[b]Winnipeg[/b]
Median household income: $66,424
Average household discretionary income: $38,372.93
Average value of primary real estate: $308,091
Average property tax: $2100
Property tax to household income: 2.5%

[b]Regina[/b]
Median household income: $78,090
Average household discretionary income: $45,135.78
Average value of primary real estate: $374,576
Average property tax: $2515
Property tax to household income: 2.7%

[b]Saskatoon[/b]
Median household income: $73,086
Average household discretionary income: $43,200.00
Average value of primary real estate: $379,781
Average property tax: $2418
Property tax to household income: 2.6%

[b]Moose Jaw[/b]
Median household income: $70,818
Average household discretionary income: $37,760.84
Average value of primary real estate: $249,966
Average property tax: $2080
Property tax to household income: 2.7%

[b]Prince Albert[/b]
Median household income: $67,035
Average household discretionary income: $36,988.22
Average value of primary real estate: $360,184
Average property tax: $2116
Property tax to household income: 2.6%

Source: http://www.moneysense.ca/canadas-best-places-to-live-2015-full-ranking/

----------------------------------------

A few things that I found interesting:

- our property tax shows as the lowest of the six cities
- our median household income shows as the lowest of the six
- our average primary real estate was also the lowest of the cities, granted extremely close to Moose Jaw
- in terms of comparing property tax to household income we're right in the ballpark of all of these cities... on the lower end at 2.5% with the highest being 2.7%.
- comparing to Winnipeg, household income and discretionary income are not far off
- comparing to Prince Albert and Moose Jaw, by the time all plusses and minuses are added up our household discretionary income is very comparable despite overall household income being lower in Brandon
Edited by Adam, 2015-08-20 18:38:12

traveller
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 9145

traveller

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Posts: 9145

8/20/2015 at 5:54 PM

Jellybean said "

somebody said "1980 min wage $3.15/hr
2015 min wage $11.00/hr

1980 mortgage $100,000 @ 13.5%
25 yr biweekly $569.02

2015 mortgage $300,000 @ 3.0%
25 yr biweekly $709.87 "

You have to take in to consideration what that money got you in 1980, vs. 2015.

In 1980, $100,000 got you a very nice brand new built home including the price of land, etc.
In 2015, $300,000 gets you a used house that needs work.

A person making minimum wage in 1980 had a better chance of getting in to the housing market buying a $40,000 used house, than a person making minimum wage now trying to get a used house in the $200-300,000 range.
"

300,000 buys you a pretty nice home now too, im not sure what kind of home you got for a 100k in the 80s or even if that was the average price but i do agree we seem to "need" more things now then we did

Ill also have to do the math on the 30hr job only taking home $5, while i agree staying home can be worth it and DC and work expenses do take some from the second income now a days the SAHP still "needs" a car and clothes so unless you dont run a second vehicle those costs dont count into the calculation, in years past they didnt run a second vehicle and stuff like that so they saved that way too

Trevor

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2126

Trevor
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...
8/20/2015 at 6:03 PM

$300,000 buys you a brand new townhouse, not some fixer upper dump.
loeog
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 914

loeog
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 914

Home ownership in the 1980's
8/20/2015 at 7:53 PM

Think again about the cost to buy a house in 1980!
Interest in 1980 was way over 15% and reached 21% in 1981.

In 1980, that $100,000 dollar house mortgage started with 15,000 to 21,000 dollars interest per year before you paid a penny towards ownership.Yes, 15% per year is $15000 a year.

Interest rates stayed above 10% for around 15 years.

For the sake of saying a cheap house in 1980 was $50,000, you paid 625 dollars just in interest before adding the principal.

The cost of housing in the 1980's was truly unafordable for low/mid wage earners.

Edited by loeog, 2015-08-20 20:16:38
Jellybean
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1378

Jellybean
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Posts: 1378

....
8/20/2015 at 9:22 PM

Trevor said "$300,000 buys you a brand new townhouse, not some fixer upper dump. "

I didn't say that you'd get a dump for 300,000. I realize you can still get new basic condos for that, but you cannot build a new house really for under $400,000ish these days. What you get for 300,000 these days usually needs some kind of work to make it the way you like, or replace worn out carpet or whatever.

There are lots of factors to take in to consideration, but essentially, in the end, income levels are not at all keeping up with cost of living.
whatwouldyoudo
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 25

whatwouldyoudo
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 25

Just try being
8/20/2015 at 9:45 PM

A single mother. I have rent, hydro, car payment, insurance, daycare for 2 kids, school supplies, sports fees etc for 4 kids(have 4, 2 are school aged), food, clothing, gas etc. I work full time and go to school fulltime. I am from Brandon, and had I tried to do this 15 years ago I wouldn't have struggled as much. But with the cost of fuel, food and housing we are always sinking. It is frustrating. I didn't ask to be divorced and struggle but is what it is. Just wish government would step in and increase wages and cap gas, food, and housing prices. Denmark is a great example of quality of life. My opinion is if you work to pay bills and die you're a slave. What kind of life is that for the people of this country? Seems 3rd world to me.

loeog
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 914

loeog

Joined: Mar 2009

Posts: 914

You have 4 kids

8/20/2015 at 11:03 PM

whatwouldyoudo said "A single mother. I have rent, hydro, car payment, insurance, daycare for 2 kids, school supplies, sports fees etc for 4 kids(have 4, 2 are school aged), food, clothing, gas etc. I work full time and go to school fulltime. I am from Brandon, and had I tried to do this 15 years ago I wouldn't have struggled as much. But with the cost of fuel, food and housing we are always sinking. It is frustrating. I didn't ask to be divorced and struggle but is what it is. Just wish government would step in and increase wages and cap gas, food, and housing prices. Denmark is a great example of quality of life. My opinion is if you work to pay bills and die you're a slave. What kind of life is that for the people of this country? Seems 3rd world to me. "

You commented about Denmarks system.

Look at the liberal platform, they promise to double the monthly child payment.

http://www.liberal.ca/realchange/canada-child-benefit-plan/?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=jt_post&utm_campaign=elxn42_growth_20150817

You can quit work and the liberals will pay you over 22,000 dollars plus you can collect welfare. Vote liberal,and you should be able to clear $40k a year.

Unfortunately, I will need to work and make over $80k a year to get the same $40k for my family!

traveller
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 9145

traveller

Joined: Jun 2007

Posts: 9145

8/21/2015 at 12:25 AM

Jellybean said "

Trevor said "$300,000 buys you a brand new townhouse, not some fixer upper dump. "

I didn't say that you'd get a dump for 300,000. I realize you can still get new basic condos for that, but you cannot build a new house really for under $400,000ish these days. What you get for 300,000 these days usually needs some kind of work to make it the way you like, or replace worn out carpet or whatever.

There are lots of factors to take in to consideration, but essentially, in the end, income levels are not at all keeping up with cost of living.
"

think your comments really say a lot about why you think wages are not keeping up, a 300k house is defiantly a nice place here and its not realistic that everyone gets to build a new house, its not wages these days that are the big issue its peoples standards that have changed

some...body....
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 172

some...body....

Joined: Sep 2006

Posts: 172

8/21/2015 at 7:53 AM

traveller said "

Jellybean said "

Trevor said "$300,000 buys you a brand new townhouse, not some fixer upper dump. "

I didn't say that you'd get a dump for 300,000. I realize you can still get new basic condos for that, but you cannot build a new house really for under $400,000ish these days. What you get for 300,000 these days usually needs some kind of work to make it the way you like, or replace worn out carpet or whatever.

There are lots of factors to take in to consideration, but essentially, in the end, income levels are not at all keeping up with cost of living.
"

think your comments really say a lot about why you think wages are not keeping up, a 300k house is defiantly a nice place here and its not realistic that everyone gets to build a new house, its not wages these days that are the big issue its peoples standards that have changed "

Thank you! That's exactly what I was thinking too. We bought a large house, big yard, great area of town, course to a great school. It's dated, and doesn't have air conditioning. But even though it's not brand new, it's not ugly. I don't "need" to change anything. And we paid $280,000. So I think it all comes down to expectations.

Jellybean
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1378

Jellybean

Joined: May 2010

Posts: 1378

....

8/21/2015 at 8:23 AM

ok then, we will compare used houses of today to used houses in the 80's.

You are missing my point. I was simply using the cost of building a brand new basic home then and now to compare how the wages have not kept up with cost of living.
So, what you can buy for $300,000 now gets you what you could buy for $50,000 then. It was still easier to afford a $50,000 dollar home even at 12% interest than it is a $300,000 home at 3%. And it's not only housing prices, everything has gone up, daycare costs, food, utilities, vehicles, etc. and it's becoming more and more difficult to afford things because wages aren't increasing at the same rate.

I do however agree that peoples standards are a little outrageous these days. Everyone has to have the biggest and the best it seems.

Michelle Budiwski

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 8121

Michelle Budiwski
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 8121

Disturbing
8/21/2015 at 8:59 AM

What disturbs me about this discussion are the comments about working moms. While I understand that education and experience differs, not ALL mothers earn just enough in the work force to cover child care costs.

There is also this continuing sense of entitlement that astounds me. Instead of complaining about what others earn, what they have and how you can't afford what you want, people should be working to better themselves, their positions and earning what they want. It's kind of like the price of gas or the weather - if you waste time complaining about it you are losing an opportunity to succeed in spite of it.

Minimum wage was never meant to afford a luxurious lifestyle. Entry level unskilled labour is what it is - always has been but yet it seems people think it should get them what everyone else has around them. THAT is the problem, not wages of the COL - it's people sense of entitlement without ownership.

Edited by Butterflymbca, 2015-08-21 09:05:12

Jellybean
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1378

Jellybean

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Posts: 1378

.....

8/21/2015 at 9:11 AM

Butterflymbca said "What disturbs me about this discussion are the comments about working moms. While I understand that education and experience differs, not ALL mothers earn just enough in the work force to cover child care costs.

There is also this continuing sense of entitlement that astounds me. Instead of complaining about what others earn, what they have and how you can't afford what you want, people should be working to better themselves, their positions and earning what they want. It's kind of like the price of gas or the weather - if you waste time complaining about it you are losing an opportunity to succeed in spite of it.

Minimum wage was never meant to afford a luxurious lifestyle. Entry level unskilled labour is what it is - always has been but yet it seems people think it should get them what everyone else has around them. THAT is the problem, not wages of the COL - it's people sense of entitlement without ownership.

Edited by Butterflymbca, 2015-08-21 09:05:12"

While I agree with a lot of what you point out here....there isn't always the opportunity to earn more, no matter how hard you work. If you are at a job that you truly love, but it only offers minimal advancement and raises, you are really faced with a tough spot to be in. Everyone has the desire to earn more, buy better things, etc., and be at the job they love. That is just not reality though. Because of the sheer cost of a lot of basic things these days, unless you are a professional working in a high earning position, the options for what you are able to afford are not always there.

People earning less than $15-$20/h really aren't left with a ton of options so that they can afford to live. The economy and society caters to the rich, and that is unfortunate.

Michelle Budiwski

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 8121

Michelle Budiwski
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Posts: 8121

Jellybean
8/21/2015 at 9:55 AM

Choosing a job you love over one without opportunity for advancement is NOT a lack of opportunity, it is a conscious decision. You are choosing passion over advancement and that is perfectly fine - but when you choose the action, you choose the consequence so you must live with the limitations of that career.

If you want more than you earn it isn't up to society to give you more it is up to you to earn it and if you can't or won't, that is on you not on society.
CommonTater
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CommonTater
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Nothing new
8/21/2015 at 10:00 AM

Society has always catered to the rich. That is called capitalism. The unfortunate thing is that the people who are not rich, not willing to put in the work to be rich or who aren't lucky enough to be born/become rich have lost sight of the reality that rich people can have more and fancier shit than they can. The line between wants and needs has become way too blurry.

Jellybean
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1378

Jellybean

Joined: May 2010

Posts: 1378

.....

8/21/2015 at 10:14 AM

Butterflymbca said "Choosing a job you love over one without opportunity for advancement is NOT a lack of opportunity, it is a conscious decision. You are choosing passion over advancement and that is perfectly fine - but when you choose the action, you choose the consequence so you must live with the limitations of that career.

If you want more than you earn it isn't up to society to give you more it is up to you to earn it and if you can't or won't, that is on you not on society. "

So, what you are saying is if you have no desire to go to university, and become a professional, or if you can't afford to go to university, or do not have the desire to leave the career you love, you should be left with struggling to live, because if your choice of career?
I think that there should always be options out there for everyone. And by options, I do not mean fancy brand new cars, homes, tv's, etc. But to not have even the option of trying to get in to the housing market for example, so you can gain equity and work your way upwards, that is not right. Why do you think the vacancy rate for rentals is so low here and many other places? Because way too man people cannot afford to get started. If you are not provided with options to better your life, then it won't matter how dedicated you are or how hard you work. If you can't afford the cheapest education out there, or the cheapest house out there, etc. then you have no options.

Society doesn't need to cater to lazy people who want things handed to them, but at the same time, it doesn't need to make everything only possible for the rich.

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