Discussions

Sorbet, you claim that the teachers of the students you work with are class 4 and are doing fine, yet I also remember you complaining about how math isn't being taught properly and that you are astonished at how poorly teachers are doing with the math curriculum. So which is it? Also, how do you know that these teachers are class 4? With all of the information you seem to gather on the workings of BSD I wonder why you keep it all to yourself and voice your opinion only on an anonymous thread. I believe your time would be better served going directly to the source and meeting with trustees or principals.

some of the trustees and other education dept personell are quite happy with the way things are. remember the saying" none so blind as those that will not see"

crake88 said "Sorbet, you claim that the teachers of the students you work with are class 4 and are doing fine, yet I also remember you complaining about how math isn't being taught properly and that you are astonished at how poorly teachers are doing with the math curriculum. So which is it? Also, how do you know that these teachers are class 4? With all of the information you seem to gather on the workings of BSD I wonder why you keep it all to yourself and voice your opinion only on an anonymous thread. I believe your time would be better served going directly to the source and meeting with trustees or principals. "

thank you for the reply crake. I sincerely appreciate it. It keeps this important discussion rolling.  
 
I know many teachers, as I converse regularly with them. I know many who are class 4 who do a great job. My point is that a masters degree, while increasing pay and pension, does nothing to improve a teacher. If it does, I would like to ask the divisional leaders what improvements to the system parents and students will see with so many newly minted masters teachers? It's a hard question to answer, but would you not expect to see better genuine results in the classroom of a masters teacher compared to that of a B.Ed class 4 teacher? I expect more from a dishwasher I pay $1000 for than a dishwasher I pay $400 for. Should the public know which teachers have masters degrees? After all, it is the public who pays for the salary increases and pension increases. I have no problem with someone furthering their education, but we should also expect better results, shouldn't we? There are many excellent teachers, but there are also some who are not very good. Should an excellent class 4 teacher be paid $10K less than a not-so-good class 6 teacher? The education system costs millions. We, the public should expect nothing but the best, right?  
 
The math curriculum from grades 1-8 is an utter disgrace. Anyone who understands mathematics should realize this. The curriculum is one of the main reasons why Manitoba is at the bottom. Like I said in previous threads..current grade 8 outcomes were grade 6 outcomes in 1980. For this I blame the Department of Education. Do you think there are teachers in the system who teach elementary math yet will claim they hated math and are no good at math?  
 
Many parents are complacent. As long as their kids are happy, they are happy, and they do very little to find out what really goes on in the classroom. Other parents think their kids do no wrong and feel their kids are entitled to high grades just for showing up. These two groups of parents are out to lunch. The third type of parent is the parent who pays close attention to what is going. These are the parents who are labelled as nuisances because they ask the hard questions and have serious concerns. Individually, these parents don't have much sway. The only way parents are taken seriously is if a group of them gets together to voice their concerns. Parents who take academics seriously should not be fooled by low standards, which is what the current math curriculum promotes.  
 
Educational is a passion of mine. I enjoy discussing education. I know many in the powerful education establishment dislike what I say, and that is fine. I'm thankful that in this country I still have the opportunity to voice my opinion. Some agree with me, some don't. But for the billions that public education costs, it sure gets very few headlines in Manitoba.  
 
I believe the system is broken and nothing short of a whole system makeover will fix it. These band-aid approaches and the lowering of standards are making things worse. Throwing more and more money is not helping.  
 
To those who are offended by my post, I'm sorry, but I'm too old to worry about being politically correct. Things need to be said. I have never said anything personal about any individual. I have never posted pictures of assignments I am seeing. Public education should not be ignored and it should not be relegated to the backpages.  
 
Crake, do you feel that all teachers are outstanding teachers?  
 
 
Edited by Sorbet, 2016-02-19 07:31:17

believe yearly tax increases are here to stay. There will be a repeat discussion on this next year at the same time.

Sorbet said "believe yearly tax increases are here to stay. There will be a repeat discussion on this next year at the same time. "

who aren't ex-teachers or left leaning individuals school taxes will go up every year Even with the province giving more every single year it's always the same scenario.

188k for video surveillance on all bsd buses...and 799k for bus "monitors"? I can understand a surveillance program at the expected cost. But are children that irresponsible that they can't be transferred from home to school without being babysat? Would video monitoring not be enough? I might be looking into a career change with all that money being passed around for "monitoring" behaviour.

my son, who is gr 8, just started second unit out the five supposed to be completed in the recommended curriculum for social studies and something similar with science, with half the school year already over. This hike seems ridiculous. Why doesn't the board think of cutting unnecessary costs? I heard, every employee of BSD has a cell-phone with a data plan even though they have a desktop computer and free internet on it while they are at work. How do they justify that expense? Has anyone thought if it's really needed?

I don't know where people hear these things, but no, every employee of the BSD does NOT have a cell phone with data plan. That one is just laughable.

who-am-i? said "I don't know where people hear these things, but no, every employee of the BSD does NOT have a cell phone with data plan. That one is just laughable. "

don't know for sure, but I would agree with you that likely not every BSD employee has a cell phone paid by BSD. But does that mean some employees do have cell phones paid by BSD? If so who and how many, and what is the total annual cost that the taxpayers are paying?  
 
Edited by Sorbet, 2016-02-21 21:35:51

Under great advice of my spouse, I wish to put forth another point on this topic. Some may think it is a rant but take it as it is.  
 
I always get a laugh when I hear people continually blame Teachers for the cost of education: for the poor results: for the state of Education in general. Yes, I will say there are poor teachers out there but I will also say there are definitely more GREAT teachers than poor. And yes I have friends who are teachers and I have kids in school (2 in and 2 just finished)  
 
From what I have heard, the government may say that they are increasing the money for education by 2% but for some divisions, they do not see an increase to their general operation budgets (zero funding) and some of the money that is given has to go to specific categories like Technology or ESL students. In reality, the Provincial Government is only funding up to 60% of the total cost of education in most school divisions. If your division offers a shops program, most likely not covered by the provincial money. And, private schools also get public money funding. Not sure I agree with that. With this, it is no wonder divisions HAVE to go to the home owner. In some cases, it is to finance the Shops or Motor programs offered in the school OR other specialty classes/subjects.  
 
I read earlier from someone who said they would like to be a bug on the wall to see what happens. I wish you could. Just as many say there are terrible teachers, I would hope you would see that not all students are perfect angels willing to learn and respectful, pleasant and kind. What you may see is the verbal abuse, physical threats, outright lack of caring that a few students do that takes up a majority of a teachers time.  
 
Public Schools are opened to EVERYONE. Teachers don't get to select the students they teach but teach they must do. Students come in all sizes and all abilities and the Great teachers are those who continue to work with them day after day trying to instill a love of learning that those students will WANT to do. Only, not every student wants to do that. AND some, just can't.  
 
I read another comment that stated they wanted to see students evaluate their teachers. The idea that if a teacher continues to get lousy results from students, those teachers are fired. Interesting....Lets see how this works.  
 
Teacher - Why did you not complete your homework from last night?  
Student - Didn't want to do it. There was a hockey game I had to play in.  
Teacher - Well now you can stay in during lunch time to finish it.  
Student - No, I am not going to do that and I am going to report you as a crappy teacher who doesn't teach anything and get my friends to do the same.  
 
Now, did Manitoba rank worst in a Standard Test? Yes, but the average score was over 81%. I have been out of school for a while but my kids are still in and I can't remember ever telling them that I believed they fail when they scored over 80% but yet, that is exactly what the media is stating. What I find interesting is that we don't know who wrote the test? Was the test based on the Manitoba Curriculum which I agree has some major issues? If it was my oldest who wrote, I know the results would most likely be in the 60% and not because of the teaching but of the disability in general reading. In fact because of the teaching, that mark would have been achieved because of the skills and adaptations that were taught. My youngest has Down syndrome and I can't thank our schools for what they have been able to do to bring the best out and how they have adapted and have included my child in all the activities of both the classroom and the extra-curricular. And we haven't always been the most cooperating parents when it has come to all of our kids. Maybe our school and the teachers are just unique and special in that way.  
 
I understand the frustration of many but this is not like the general work force. If an employee told their boss to F off, they may get fired. Or if they told their boss that the work was stupid and pointless, they most likely would get fired. When a student tells a teacher to F off or what the are learning is stupid, they don't get fired. Maybe 2 days of suspension and then they are back in the class where the teacher will continue to work with that student to get the best they can out of the student.  
 
Remember, teachers are not the reason for "Peer Passing" That is left to others who are more important I guess.  
 
Other thoughts from someone who I guess is on the other side. Take it for what it is. And please, attend your School Division's Public Budget meeting and ask as many questions as you can and request explanation and then prepare to make a presentation. It is our right as taxpayers.

I obviously wasn't as clear as I thought, I don't believe any BSD employees have phones supplied by the BSD. If, and that is a huge IF, there are any, they would probably be in IT or maybe the maintenance workers. Not the custodians, but the men and women who are going from school to school throughout the day/week.

Excellent reply to this thread!

Referring to the students as the employees seems just so wrong in my mind, the students are the job at hand, educating these kids is the task that has to be done. Look at it this way, you are a mechanic working in a garage, not your garage, but a garage. Someone brings in a car to have the water pump replaced, simple enough right? The engine has not been looked after and is a greaseball, so now the job becomes a dirty job, and as you start to work on the water pump you run into the problem of every bolt being frozen, and not only that the heads of the bolts are all chewed up and sockets won't fit properly and you end up skinning a knuckle, but in the end the water pump gets replaced. The job is to change a waterpump, or teach a child, and no job is perfect, well, not for most of us.  
Thing sort of take a turn at this point when looking at a job, the person who has had their waterpump replaced pays for a job, a job that is done correctly, it has to be done correctly because the customer is paying for it.  
If you want to look at the employer,employee relationship, look at the mechanic and owner, or in the case of education, the employees of a school division and the people who pay for the education system, the taxpayer.  
We live in a capitalist system, and for many that means that thing go up and things go down, budgets grow and bubgets shrink, employees are hired on and employees are let go, not only that, but people make investments in their businesses, or skills,but in order to capitalize on that improvement they seek out other employement since there is no need of their new skills in the job that they hold.  
 
I'm a real doom and gloom sort of guy, and changes are coming, take care of your money because like in the oil industry, sometimes there are crashes and reality comes home.  
 
 
 
 
Edited by don brown, 2016-02-22 05:34:26

If teaching is the priority then why not have the teacher development days during summer break when the students are not there?  
 
I have coworkers who have kids in school and they're telling me that their teachers don't do much they pass the buck too the TA. Not many do any intramural lunchtime sports or after school programs. They just show up a collect the cheque.  
 
Not from my experience but from what I am being told... If this is true perhaps the BSD needs a round of layoffs, but we would never see that happen.  
 
They know at tax time they have a blank cheque. Remember the 9% increase they tried a few years back. My wages haven't kept pace and I'm having a hard time with paying my taxes... BSD ever heard of wage freeze come contract time?  
 
Maybe time to take them off salary pay and onto hourly, have them clock in and out just like the rest of us average joes.  

From what I understood, the tax increase is to build new schools in order to grow with the increasing enrollment.  
 
From this, we will see more schools and Brandon school division employees in the form of teachers, and educational assistants to meet these needs.

I am printing out a few school division reports to read over again. One thing I think people need to understand is until teachers speak up they will always be thrown under the bus. When they make up 85% of the wages that is the largest area to look at cutting costs. Sure you can say upper brass is over paid. They make up 3% of the division budget. Teachers and aids make up over 80% of the budget. Of course that is the first place you will look at to see about costs. When I see reports showing sub booking services average 3264 subs needed per month.....holly crap that is a lot of subs and wages that need to be covered. All these seminars, courses, trips for courses, etc. Is this all good value for money? Is it benefiting the students. No fail policies, are they benefiting the students, etc. People want to toss out the "what about the papers they mark at home", etc. Comments like this make me ask. Are every teacher bringing home the same work to mark, do the beyond the extra required, etc all the time or are we singling out a handful of teachers? I know my kid going to school the school even confirmed sub days. To me there were a lot of them. We all want teachers to teach, and as the third highest paid province for teachers, are we getting that value out of them? Maybe if teachers don't want blame educate us on what happens on all the days where subs are needed and such.  
To be continued.....

The only way we are going to see the Brandon School Division budget get under control is to have School Board trustees that can see the need to provide a good quality education to the students, as well as make sure the taxpayer is getting the best value for their tax dollars.  
 
At this point in time, and for many years now, it is my opinion that we haven't getting either.

Fishin Guy said "I am printing out a few school division reports to read over again. One thing I think people need to understand is until teachers speak up they will always be thrown under the bus. When they make up 85% of the wages that is the largest area to look at cutting costs. Sure you can say upper brass is over paid. They make up 3% of the division budget. Teachers and aids make up over 80% of the budget. Of course that is the first place you will look at to see about costs. When I see reports showing sub booking services average 3264 subs needed per month.....holly crap that is a lot of subs and wages that need to be covered. All these seminars, courses, trips for courses, etc. Is this all good value for money? Is it benefiting the students. No fail policies, are they benefiting the students, etc. People want to toss out the "what about the papers they mark at home", etc. Comments like this make me ask. Are every teacher bringing home the same work to mark, do the beyond the extra required, etc all the time or are we singling out a handful of teachers? I know my kid going to school the school even confirmed sub days. To me there were a lot of them. We all want teachers to teach, and as the third highest paid province for teachers, are we getting that value out of them? Maybe if teachers don't want blame educate us on what happens on all the days where subs are needed and such.   To be continued..... "

number that stood out for me from your post is 3264 subs needed per month? Are you sure this is per month and not per year? This is an astronomical number.  
 
Subs are paid $147/day.  
 
147 x 3264 x 10 = $4,798,080. This cannot be right. Did you mean 3264 subs per year? Per month is pretty much impossible. If it was per year then it would be $436,189 which is more realistic.

Sorbet said "    Fishin Guy said "I am printing out a few school division reports to read over again. One thing I think people need to understand is until teachers speak up they will always be thrown under the bus. When they make up 85% of the wages that is the largest area to look at cutting costs. Sure you can say upper brass is over paid. They make up 3% of the division budget. Teachers and aids make up over 80% of the budget. Of course that is the first place you will look at to see about costs. When I see reports showing sub booking services average 3264 subs needed per month.....holly crap that is a lot of subs and wages that need to be covered. All these seminars, courses, trips for courses, etc. Is this all good value for money? Is it benefiting the students. No fail policies, are they benefiting the students, etc. People want to toss out the "what about the papers they mark at home", etc. Comments like this make me ask. Are every teacher bringing home the same work to mark, do the beyond the extra required, etc all the time or are we singling out a handful of teachers? I know my kid going to school the school even confirmed sub days. To me there were a lot of them. We all want teachers to teach, and as the third highest paid province for teachers, are we getting that value out of them? Maybe if teachers don't want blame educate us on what happens on all the days where subs are needed and such.   To be continued..... " number that stood out for me from your post is 3264 subs needed per month? Are you sure this is per month and not per year? This is an astronomical number.     Subs are paid $147/day.     147 x 3264 x 10 = $4,798,080. This cannot be right. Did you mean 3264 subs per year? Per month is pretty much impossible. If it was per year then it would be $436,189 which is more realistic. "

Nope that is correct my number.....had to double check. According to the school division report for Sub booking services states as follows.  
For the 2014-2015 school year, Sub Booking Services tracked the following statistics:  
Average # of Bookings per month  
Secretarial/Education Assistants=1242  
Custodial=156  
Teachers=1866  
 
Average # of those bookings per month that were same day call in  
Secretarial/Education Assistants=530 or 43% of bookings  
Custodial=69 or 44% of bookings  
Teachers=702 or 38% of bookings  
 
That is why I question all these extras classes, courses, training seminars, whatever you want to call it. That is a lot of teaching time that is not going towards the students.

Don't forget. 4.8 million dollars in subs is a realistic number when you look at the teachers/aids/support workers/etc total over 75 million dollars. But our current education system would dummy down that number. Using 4.8 million in sub payments only makes up around 6% of the budget. Pfffft.....why would anyone complain about a measly 6% when there is the remaining 94% of the budgeted amount going towards the greater good of our children.  
The thing is though your $147 for a sub, that doesn't include the salary of the person replaced does it? So now if the teacher is in a seminar for the day they are paid their wage, then the sub is paid the $147 so in the end it is around a $500 day per person missed.  
Now unless I am really missing something but I am just taking this out of the division reports online plus asking a few questions. If more clarity can be brought to the table making my numbers out to lunch then fantastic. I hope my numbers are wrong as they seem pretty high.

Fishin Guy said "Don't forget. 4.8 million dollars in subs is a realistic number when you look at the teachers/aids/support workers/etc total over 75 million dollars. But our current education system would dummy down that number. Using 4.8 million in sub payments only makes up around 6% of the budget. Pfffft.....why would anyone complain about a measly 6% when there is the remaining 94% of the budgeted amount going towards the greater good of our children.   The thing is though your $147 for a sub, that doesn't include the salary of the person replaced does it? So now if the teacher is in a seminar for the day they are paid their wage, then the sub is paid the $147 so in the end it is around a $500 day per person missed.   Now unless I am really missing something but I am just taking this out of the division reports online plus asking a few questions. If more clarity can be brought to the table making my numbers out to lunch then fantastic. I hope my numbers are wrong as they seem pretty high. "

I can say is WOW! Thanks for the reply and the detailed info.  
 
I agree with you that there are plenty of problems. Academic standards are at an all time low and the cost to fund a sub-mediocre system continues to rise.

Paying a teacher hourly and having to click in and out? Sounds like a great idea.. I'm sure I'd be getting paid more then I do now

Fishin Guy said "    Sorbet said "    Fishin Guy said "I am printing out a few school division reports to read over again. One thing I think people need to understand is until teachers speak up they will always be thrown under the bus. When they make up 85% of the wages that is the largest area to look at cutting costs. Sure you can say upper brass is over paid. They make up 3% of the division budget. Teachers and aids make up over 80% of the budget. Of course that is the first place you will look at to see about costs. When I see reports showing sub booking services average 3264 subs needed per month.....holly crap that is a lot of subs and wages that need to be covered. All these seminars, courses, trips for courses, etc. Is this all good value for money? Is it benefiting the students. No fail policies, are they benefiting the students, etc. People want to toss out the "what about the papers they mark at home", etc. Comments like this make me ask. Are every teacher bringing home the same work to mark, do the beyond the extra required, etc all the time or are we singling out a handful of teachers? I know my kid going to school the school even confirmed sub days. To me there were a lot of them. We all want teachers to teach, and as the third highest paid province for teachers, are we getting that value out of them? Maybe if teachers don't want blame educate us on what happens on all the days where subs are needed and such.   To be continued..... " number that stood out for me from your post is 3264 subs needed per month? Are you sure this is per month and not per year? This is an astronomical number.     Subs are paid $147/day.     147 x 3264 x 10 = $4,798,080. This cannot be right. Did you mean 3264 subs per year? Per month is pretty much impossible. If it was per year then it would be $436,189 which is more realistic. " Nope that is correct my number.....had to double check. According to the school division report for Sub booking services states as follows.   For the 2014-2015 school year, Sub Booking Services tracked the following statistics:   Average # of Bookings per month   Secretarial/Education Assistants=1242   Custodial=156   Teachers=1866     Average # of those bookings per month that were same day call in   Secretarial/Education Assistants=530 or 43% of bookings   Custodial=69 or 44% of bookings   Teachers=702 or 38% of bookings     That is why I question all these extras classes, courses, training seminars, whatever you want to call it. That is a lot of teaching time that is not going towards the students. "

Just as an fyi, while only approx. 40% of sub days were same day call ins, not all of the other 60% would have been for pd/seminars/classes. It's always preferred to book a sub in advance, so some of that sub time would have been for medical appts or perhaps unpaid leave. Without a more detailed breakdown of the reasons given for the in advance sub bookings, it's merely speculation to claim that they were for courses, etc.  
 
 
Further, while a sub teacher may make $147/day, support staff definitely does not.

Totally understand that not everything would be classes and seminars, etc. I don't know about you but working the hours that the school does I am sure many appointments for dentists and what not can be accommodated outside school hours, on PD days if not required to attend, etc. It will be inevitable that some appointments are not scheduled outside school hours but looking at the big picture the school reports 3264 missed days averaged a month. Now between secretarial, EA, and teachers that is a lot of time not going towards the students each month. I also understand that isn't always for the day either. It could be a sub for on block of class for a day too. I also don't know if the teacher has 4 classes the sub days recorded are by class or by day. One day could be 4 sub records I don't know and am just posting what I read put by the division. As someone who looks at budgets all the time you always look for improvements. Always looking at the largest money consumers is the first step. Good example of this is within the same report there is the following:  
# of postings for 2014-15 school year=384  
# applicants within division applying=1227  
# applicants processed for consideration of employment=7059  
This tells me there is a saturation of people in the market looking for jobs. 7000 applications for 384 positions. The comments of wage negotiations regarding maintaining competitive wages is bull....If there are that many applications wanting these positions why is there no wage negotiations? With the economy sorry to say we don't need the cream of the crop paying out 3rd highest wages. If we can get competent people with less year payouts doing the same quality work as higher earners why not? Are these division positions yearly term work where the option to renew each year or is it once you're in your set for life?

interesting to see the percentage wage increase for BSD 'administration' over the years, likely much higher than the tax increase percentage. Their wages are not a negotiated item like teacher's wages and pensions, they can be raised any old time! Also, how many "new" management/executive positions have been added in the last five years? Just wondering......

s-t-r-e-t-c-h said "interesting to see the percentage wage increase for BSD 'administration' over the years, likely much higher than the tax increase percentage. Their wages are not a negotiated item like teacher's wages and pensions, they can be raised any old time! Also, how many "new" management/executive positions have been added in the last five years? Just wondering...... "

Well can't go back 5 years but on the school division site it shows operating costs. This includes supplies, services, etc. It doesn't show  
-Admin  
2013-14-2.7mil or 3.1% of budget  
2014-15-2.9mil or 3.1% of budget=3.7% increase from previous or .2mil  
2015-16-3.2mil or 3.4% of budget=10.3% increase from previous or .3mil  
 
Rest of school division staff  
2013-14-82.8mil or 95.7% of budget  
2014-15-86.6mil or 96.8% of budget=4.5% increase from previous or 3.8mil  
2015-16-89.8mil or 96.5% of budget=3.6% increase from previous or 3.2mil

SparkyJones said "Is there anyway that these tax increases can be put to a vote by property owners? "

You only get to vote for a trustee and hope that trustee shares your views on tax increases.

that teachers don't get paid enough for their nine month year should read the column about this subject in the Westman Journal this week.

there is a good letter to the editor in today's Brandon Sun from C of C president Jordan Ludwig asking the school board to take another look at their budget.  
 
We are all suffering from paying high taxes and making hard choices when shopping or choosing what we can buy, everyone has to ensure they have money set aside to pay their tax bills.  
 
The school board NEEDS to lower their increase. Brandon finally gets a Mayor and council that respects citizens but every year it's the same old from the school board!

Johnbisonbear said "that teachers don't get paid enough for their nine month year should read the column about this subject in the Westman Journal this week. "

was an interesting, but factual article. Here it is for anyone who may have missed it.  
 
http://www.westmanjournal.com/opinion/editorial/know-the-facts-about-school-taxes-1.2182221