Discussions

have the cash to invest and build in our city why not? It's not like people are knocking on our door to build here.

Do we really want to turn Brandon into another Portage ?

Found this online.  
www.brandon.ca/images/pdf/council/FN_UrbanDevelopmentAreas_PublicInfo.pdf  
 
Edited by Fishin Guy, 2017-02-16 12:20:56

Happy1986 said "Do we really want to turn Brandon into another Portage ? "

care to explain what you mean?

Johnbisonbear said "    Happy1986 said "Do we really want to turn Brandon into another Portage ? " care to explain what you mean? "

Sounds like someone:  
a) doesn't like the idea of an urban reserve in Brandon  
b) doesn't think highly of  
i)Portage La Prairie  
ii) Portage Avenue

Nothing against an Urban Reserve as long as it is an opportunity for improvement. Looking up urban reserves it is a lot of gas stations and vlt buildings. If it isn't that it is office space which is occupied by mostly their own departments. Since there are no bylaws that apply unless agreed upon, I wonder how places like a gas station would work. The city is strict now in having the stations now be liable for ground contamination and such. Would the same rules apply and can they be enforced?

the only thing that would make me opposed is losing the opportunity to oppose a casino.  
 
Im not even totally opposed to a casino (not that i support them either) its just the fact that we lose the ability to regulate and participate in the revenues if it is on a reserve, If that reserve is in Brandon then we have no voting power, thus giving up the fair ability to have a say in the city.  
 
as well there are other issues such as service and other municipal agreements that would need to be worked out. I understand why they would want one and how it would benefit their people, which is good its just to bad these deals segregate Canadians

I have no problem with anyone coming to Brandon to invest in a business venture. Is there any reason it would [b]have[/b] to be on an urban reserve though. Haven't we enough devide between the Native population and non-Native Canadians?  
 
Canadians, all Canadians, need to work toward a society that is [b]us[/b] not [b]them and us[/b]. An urban reserve moves us in the exact opposite direction. IMO, short term ecconomic benifits aside, an urban reserve does nothing overall to promote a healthy Canada.

more like the Saskatoon model. From what I understand, quite innovative.

I think a urban reserve is a positive. Yet I believe the advantages should be allowed only to those of that band or reserve.  
Some current reserves are no longer able to survive as a economic entity in my opinion.. Western Canada is full of ghost towns where residents left for economic reasons.  
 
If a band sees a opportunity in Brandon I say good but the "breaks" should only be available to that band.  
 
What ever business that is set up be it a gas station etc has a competitor. Casino? ok that would be the exception. There is none but what the casino may sell like cigarettes should be tax free to band members not all bands etc. The reserve system is broken. We should fix that first before pop up reserves happen.

Just not in downtown Brandon. For anyone who has ever gone to one, they only do well where there is lots of room for parking and a hotel.  
Ideal location is north of the airport. And even though it may be located on an urban reserve, they will still have to follow Manitoba laws which means no smoking indoors. South Beach and Spirit Sands at Carberry do not sell cigarettes and no indoor smoking is allowed.

I have been hearing rumors about the land north of the new service road, south of the airport. Does anyone know anything about the future plans for that patch of land?

 
 
Edited by bean, 2017-02-16 17:38:14

Doug said "I think a urban reserve is a positive. Yet I believe the advantages should be allowed only to those of that band or reserve.   Some current reserves are no longer able to survive as a economic entity in my opinion.. Western Canada is full of ghost towns where residents left for economic reasons.     If a band sees a opportunity in Brandon I say good but the "breaks" should only be available to that band.     What ever business that is set up be it a gas station etc has a competitor. Casino? ok that would be the exception. There is none but what the casino may sell like cigarettes should be tax free to band members not all bands etc. The reserve system is broken. We should fix that first before pop up reserves happen. "

technically only status Indians are [i] legally[/i] able to use the reserves benefits and there is supposed to be deals with the municipality in order to pay their fair share of services, if they choose to use them. All that sounds great BUTT  
 
The issues i have is not from Native groups going into business, providing opportunists for both their people and ours (there is some great larger native businesses)it is the segregation in the way of different rules and benefits that our laws allow that i have the issues with, that is not any one persons fault but a broken system, one imho we should be fazing out, not settling for more  
 
the crimes of the past were bad but many nations have been changed the same way but now is the time to embrace Canada and i:nclude all people within the same laws which all people have the right to influence and vote for  
 
https://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100016331/1100100016332

fargobob said "I have no problem with anyone coming to Brandon to invest in a business venture. Is there any reason it would [b]have[/b] to be on an urban reserve though. Haven't we enough devide between the Native population and non-Native Canadians?     Canadians, all Canadians, need to work toward a society that is [b]us[/b] not [b]them and us[/b]. An urban reserve moves us in the exact opposite direction. IMO, short term ecconomic benifits aside, an urban reserve does nothing overall to promote a healthy Canada. "

I'm with you why would we want segregation in 2017.

fargobob said "I have no problem with anyone coming to Brandon to invest in a business venture. Is there any reason it would [b]have[/b] to be on an urban reserve though. Haven't we enough devide between the Native population and non-Native Canadians?     Canadians, all Canadians, need to work toward a society that is [b]us[/b] not [b]them and us[/b]. An urban reserve moves us in the exact opposite direction. IMO, short term ecconomic benifits aside, an urban reserve does nothing overall to promote a healthy Canada. "

This is well said.

I think one aspect of the urban reserve for business is because treaty groups were pushed off land they were and are legally entitled to, in favour of letting settlers take or develop that land. The land claim is still valid, but it would be problematic to say, yes, such and such band is entitled to half the land Brandon sits on, and just kick out current landowners and residents, so this a way of settling part of a claim. For those who say rights of First Nations should be phased out, do you know what that actually means??? That's like saying a family that has started a farm 150 years ago on a 160 acre land grant, grew that farm to 3000 acres, use that land as security on loans for their children's education, etc., should have their ownership and inheritance "phased out".  
 
Check your privilege. It's pretty easy to talk about "phasing out" someone else's inhertiance, isn't it?

History doesn't meet anything with private land. If you have owned land for a hundred years and you don't pay your mortgage or land taxes it is taken from you. Because your forefathers once lived there is of no consequence. All races can buy a piece of land but they have to pay for it and maintain or it is taken away.

It never has been land that has given people opportunity. What gives and person opportunity, is the same as it has always been, it is hard work, it is sacrifice, and it is not quitting at the most difficult of times, and it is trying to have a plan for the future.  
One can have a peice of land that is very fertile, but if they are not willing to till it, there is no return, one may have a steam that is full of fish, but if you do not get the fish out of the stream there is no return, one may have land that is covered with trees or wildlife, and yet if no effort is made to harvest those resources there is no return. When talk of return I'm not just talking of money, I'm talking of surviving, and surviving has always involved changing, not just today, but always.  
If owning land was the secret, there would still be farmers on every 1/4 or 1/2 section, but the world changes and people make a choice on whether to change or move on, and most people who move on have done so because it is the right choice.

fargobob said "I have no problem with anyone coming to Brandon to invest in a business venture. Is there any reason it would [b]have[/b] to be on an urban reserve though. Haven't we enough devide between the Native population and non-Native Canadians?     Canadians, all Canadians, need to work toward a society that is [b]us[/b] not [b]them and us[/b]. An urban reserve moves us in the exact opposite direction. IMO, short term ecconomic benifits aside, an urban reserve does nothing overall to promote a healthy Canada. "

According to the Brandon Sun today an urban reserve would pay a `fee for service'. This fee is calculated the same way as property taxes are and would i:nclude additional charges any other municipal property owner might incur such as in local improvement costs.  
 
So what's the problem? If the city would be collecting money from a FN business for setting up here there shouldn't be an issue.  
 
But I bet lots of people will still be opposed to any FN having 'urban reserve' status here in Brandon.

I beg to differ. Land ownership is the single biggest asset in history. As for paying a mortgage if it's owned free and clear there is no mortgage to pay. As to the comment about land not having a return without development, I think that is facile. Even fishing out of a stream has the return of eating fish. Over development is in fact one of the greatest threats to our continued existence on this planet.  
 
Even in early "democracy" not everyone could vote, it was only landowners or the elite who could vote, in Britain this is why we have a House of Lords and a House of Commons (landowners who were not lords could be elected to that "lower" house).  
 
Why do you think settlers came from europe to north america?? the possibility of land ownership!  
 
I'm actually disgusted by the idea that land ownership is somehow NOT the HUGE advantage that it is!! Or that some groups shouldn't have their inheritance because of lack of destructive development when in fact THAT IS responsible stewardship of the land. Like seriously check your privilege.  
WAKE UP.

In the last year I learned something new. I know a person who wanted to rent some land on a reserve so that he could farm it. Now I have thought that the land would be the property of the band, I was wrong, the property belonged to families, yes it belonged to individual people, and agreements had to be signed with those people,  
Now if land gives one privilege, that would mean that people on reserves also have privilege.  
Land will always be taken by a greater power, it can be a bank if you don't pay your mortgage, or it can be taken by the government by expropriation for the good of society, or government may also take your land if you fail to pay your taxes.  
My greatgrandfather did not receive a land grant, he signed an agreement with the government, a treaty of sorts. He did what he was obligated to do to keep that land, but times changed, and he lost the land to the bank after over 50 years working it. One of his sons went to the bank and asked to buy it back, the bank agreed but my grandfather could not make mortgage payments on two pieces of property, so he had to make a choice. The choice he made was to give up a peice of property that he had bought, and was making payments on, to get back the original farm.  
If owning land was the only reason for people to come to this country, why was that idea not handed down throught the generations, and why are those families not all still farming the land, or even own it.  
The way some people view things is if you own a peice of propert you are set forever, because you are privileged, and because land is bought and sold all the time, there is no reason, that if one wishes to be privileged, there is nothing to stop them from owning property.

Here is something new to learn, different reserves have differences in the details of how the ownership structure is administered. Here's something else: First Nations entered into nation to nation legal treaties, they are not subject to taxation by the crown because of that, so forget the taxes thing. As for the bank thing, that is only if you BORROW against the land, or you BORROW to buy it. That is a common practice, the land that is subject to treaty is not in that situation. If anything, the Country of Canada and the various municipalities and others who have been using the land are the ones that should have been paying and HAVE INSTEAD HAD THE ATTITUDE THAT THEY ARE PAYING FOR FIRST NATIONS. NO.  
So. A bank is only a "greater power" if you owe them money. So take that out of the equation.  
 
As for government appropriation, that is exactly what DID happen! But governments are supposed to compensate fairly when they do this, but in the case of First Nations many times they DID NOT.  
 
So can we quit trying to pretend First Nations don't deserve their rights please??????

Farming methods change. Just because farmers sell their farms, does that mean that they don't get to live their life they way they want? They can sell the land and get money to spend on land elsewhere, education to go into a different career, etc. They still have the benefit of the land in the sense that they GOT TO DECIDE what to do with the proceeds of the land.  
 
Farming technology and business models change, no one then said to those farmers, hey, if you're not going to farm the quarter section we gave you with a team of oxen you don't get to farm anymore, give that land back! Can you imagine anyone saying that to farmers nowadays? and yet i have seen quite often people arguing that First Nations people shouldn't have their hunting and harvesting rights because they don't use a bow and ride horses etc. How ridiculous!  
 
Many people came to canada with land grants as their pension for military service in the Boer War as well, that was what they got and they wanted it so they COULD secure their future, you BET it was important to have land!

Johnbisonbear said "    fargobob said "I have no problem with anyone coming to Brandon to invest in a business venture. Is there any reason it would [b]have[/b] to be on an urban reserve though. Haven't we enough devide between the Native population and non-Native Canadians?     Canadians, all Canadians, need to work toward a society that is [b]us[/b] not [b]them and us[/b]. An urban reserve moves us in the exact opposite direction. IMO, short term ecconomic benifits aside, an urban reserve does nothing overall to promote a healthy Canada. " According to the Brandon Sun today an urban reserve would pay a `fee for service'. This fee is calculated the same way as property taxes are and would i:nclude additional charges any other municipal property owner might incur such as in local improvement costs.     So what's the problem? If the city would be collecting money from a FN business for setting up here there shouldn't be an issue.     But I bet lots of people will still be opposed to any FN having 'urban reserve' status here in Brandon. "

"So what''s the problem? If the city would be collecting money from a FN business for setting up here there shouldn''t be an issue."  
 
I suppose if you don''t look at it any more closely than you seem to have, it''s pretty easy to suggest that there wouldn''t be a problem. You''ve only covered municipal taxes in that "fee for service". All reserves are exempt from school taxes as well as all provincial and federal taxes. Native employees and businesses, on a reserve, are also exempt from both federal and provincial income taxes. That kind of financial advantage would put any competing existing businesses at a serious financial disadvantage. Some folks might see that as an issue.  
 
I said before that Canadians need to come together as a people to make this a better country. Creating urban reserves does more to divide our people than bring them together. I guess, depending on one''s point of view, that''s OK.  
 
Edited by fargobob, 2017-02-17 17:04:34

Does anyone know what types of businesses have been set up on urban reserves? What benefit would those be to the people of Brandon? What negative effect would it have on those that compete with the businesses on the urban reserve?

Oh Canada said "Does anyone know what types of businesses have been set up on urban reserves? What benefit would those be to the people of Brandon? What negative effect would it have on those that compete with the businesses on the urban reserve? "

From what I have seen online it is VLT gaming center, gas station, lots of native government departments. There is lease space but haven't seen too many businesses.

fargobob said "    Johnbisonbear said "    fargobob said "I have no problem with anyone coming to Brandon to invest in a business venture. Is there any reason it would [b]have[/b] to be on an urban reserve though. Haven't we enough devide between the Native population and non-Native Canadians?     Canadians, all Canadians, need to work toward a society that is [b]us[/b] not [b]them and us[/b]. An urban reserve moves us in the exact opposite direction. IMO, short term ecconomic benifits aside, an urban reserve does nothing overall to promote a healthy Canada. " According to the Brandon Sun today an urban reserve would pay a `fee for service'. This fee is calculated the same way as property taxes are and would i:nclude additional charges any other municipal property owner might incur such as in local improvement costs.     So what's the problem? If the city would be collecting money from a FN business for setting up here there shouldn't be an issue.     But I bet lots of people will still be opposed to any FN having 'urban reserve' status here in Brandon. " "So what''s the problem? If the city would be collecting money from a FN business for setting up here there shouldn''t be an issue."     I suppose if you don''t look at it any more closely than you seem to have, it''s pretty easy to suggest that there wouldn''t be a problem. You''ve only covered municipal taxes in that "fee for service". All reserves are exempt from school taxes as well as all provincial and federal taxes. Native employees and businesses, on a reserve, are also exempt from both federal and provincial income taxes. That kind of financial advantage would put any competing existing businesses at a serious financial disadvantage. Some folks might see that as an issue.     I said before that Canadians need to come together as a people to make this a better country. Creating urban reserves does more to divide our people than bring them together. I guess, depending on one''s point of view, that''s OK.     Edited by fargobob, 2017-02-17 17:04:34"

don`t have a problem with the possibility of BU having an educational building downtown, they would be exempt from paying the city taxes and they got a bargain on the land too?

Any other aboriginal watching this and waiting for it to go super south? Lol  
I will absolutely say thank you ebrandoners for keeping it super civil for this long. #SorryNotSorry #TeamTater