Discussions

TEN said "It sounds like everyone on here is blaming management for the problems.   Now don't jump all over me.     I would suggest that the bigger problem here is co-workers that bully/harass those who do not fit the mould that THEY have created when out of sight of leadership. Then when it is reported and followed up on it becomes a he said she said situation.     What one considers bullying/harassment the other considers trying to get the co-worker to pull their weight.   You can not have supervisor/manager micro managing the workplace or then you get everyone pissed that they're treated like robots.   I've seen good workers that no one wanted to work with because they refused to use deodorant. As an employer, all I can do is suggest he change his beliefs about deodorant and personal hygiene. If he doesn't then what? "

Integritynhonesty & Johnbisonbear have it right. Most co-workers are afraid to speak out because they run the risk of being the next one to be "it". From my own experience: can anyone imagine a female lead/chargehand leaning against the bathroom door when a man exited, & asked "how longer does it take you" then that was laughed off by a supervisor? Another time, followed a man right to the bathroom door to be sure that's where he was going! Image be if the male/female roles were reversed, can you?

Obviously "be" shouldn't be in the last sentence.

Johnbisonbear said "in a large organization trying to make changes and you take your complaint to HR and HR says ' we want to thank you for bringing this to our attention' watch out! You'll be the next employee thrown under the bus and pushed out of your workplace! And your co-workers will be glad to lie about you too!   Employers like people who don't 'rock the boat' even if the boat needs to be tipped over! "

We all have to remember that HR Departments are there for the company, NOT the employee. Unfortunately, when an issue does arise, many organizations scream "you have to follow protocol", "there is a chain of command that needs to be followed".  
 
Years ago I mentioned an issue to a VP because he asked me "How are things going here?" so I told him. Later I was told to follow the chain of command and my supervisor was the first link. LOL if your supervisor IS the issue. I suggested that they shouldn't ask me questions if they didn't want an honest answer. My comment was frowned upon. That's when I learned that companies don't really want to hear the truth.  
 
Unfortunately, the climate in the workplace today is very much "shut up and do your job". Money & control are the goals. Companies do not care about people.  
 
Absolutely agree that people need to speak up and contact WS&H more often. Just keeping talking. This conversation about bullying and harassment is needed!

What do you do when the person who is the bully/verbal abuser is the boss/owner and your job is on the line?  
 
Unfortunately suck it up, put up and keep looking for another job that pays good. Problem is everyone else in your field pays next to nothing and you have a mortgage and bills to pay.  
 
Unfortunately this is far too common.

RC123 said "What do you do when the person who is the bully/verbal abuser is the boss/owner and your job is on the line?     Unfortunately suck it up, put up and keep looking for another job that pays good. Problem is everyone else in your field pays next to nothing and you have a mortgage and bills to pay.     Unfortunately this is far too common. "

this scenario plays out but isn't it sad?  
 
However there are taxpayer funded workplaces where the workers deserve to be treated fairly and that's so not the case. Where do they get off forcing employees out the door and enlisting fellow co-workers to outright lie to get people fired? That's just not right at all!

Johnbisonbear said "    RC123 said "What do you do when the person who is the bully/verbal abuser is the boss/owner and your job is on the line?     Unfortunately suck it up, put up and keep looking for another job that pays good. Problem is everyone else in your field pays next to nothing and you have a mortgage and bills to pay.     Unfortunately this is far too common. " this scenario plays out but isn't it sad?     However there are taxpayer funded workplaces where the workers deserve to be treated fairly and that's so not the case. Where do they get off forcing employees out the door and enlisting fellow co-workers to outright lie to get people fired? That's just not right at all! "

Where is the union in all this?

Fishin Guy said "    Johnbisonbear said "    RC123 said "What do you do when the person who is the bully/verbal abuser is the boss/owner and your job is on the line?     Unfortunately suck it up, put up and keep looking for another job that pays good. Problem is everyone else in your field pays next to nothing and you have a mortgage and bills to pay.     Unfortunately this is far too common. " this scenario plays out but isn't it sad?     However there are taxpayer funded workplaces where the workers deserve to be treated fairly and that's so not the case. Where do they get off forcing employees out the door and enlisting fellow co-workers to outright lie to get people fired? That's just not right at all! " Where is the union in all this? "

Well Fishin Guy, that's the million dollar question!

Rc123 that is exactly the way it happens.

Johnbisonbear said "    Fishin Guy said "    Johnbisonbear said "    RC123 said "What do you do when the person who is the bully/verbal abuser is the boss/owner and your job is on the line?     Unfortunately suck it up, put up and keep looking for another job that pays good. Problem is everyone else in your field pays next to nothing and you have a mortgage and bills to pay.     Unfortunately this is far too common. " this scenario plays out but isn't it sad?     However there are taxpayer funded workplaces where the workers deserve to be treated fairly and that's so not the case. Where do they get off forcing employees out the door and enlisting fellow co-workers to outright lie to get people fired? That's just not right at all! " Where is the union in all this? " Well Fishin Guy, that's the million dollar question! "

How about when there is no union?  
 
Either way, NOBODY should have to endure what is becoming too frequent.....  
 
Employers (not all, but too many to count) know they can find any way to push people out the door. No consideration to what they do to people mentally, financially, to their families, etc...  
 
And, they know they can lie, encourage their coworkers to lie & (what is the worst), they (again not all) know that in most cases,WS&H (Workplace Safety & Health) will do little to nothing as a result.  
 
Sorry, but I don't feel that unions are doing their part, either. Those in supervisor(as poor skilled as some are)/management/or "Leadership" can & do find any way to push out those that question them. To those in these power positions, they are often angered at the thought that an employee even questions them.... let alone challenge them on harassment/bullying. As I was told by one who wrote a complaint: one supervisor even stated: (and I quote) "YOU PISSED THEM OFF!" (meaning management, etc.)... DICTATORSHIP at its finest.  
End of MY rant...  
 
Edited by Integritynhonesty, 2018-01-19 17:32:10

Human Resources people take classes and read and learn from a book. Then they are hired by the company, work for that company and only know what they have read in a book. They do not know how different harassment or bullying affect people.  
They only know what they learned in class and the scenario's in the class.  
 
They have no idea how to deal with "the real person" who is affected by all of this or the real issue.  
 
Unions are all so different - where I worked there was a union for some employees, that would go to bat for anything. Where my husband works, you go to his union, it better be a very authentic reason or they won't do anything.  
 
on a side note:  
 
Motel owners to pay for harassment.  
 
https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/motel-owners-ordered-to-pay-former-employee-15-000-following-work-place-harassment-1.3767157

Brenda.. said "Human Resources people take classes and read and learn from a book. Then they are hired by the company, work for that company and only know what they have read in a book. They do not know how different harassment or bullying affect people.   They only know what they learned in class and the scenario's in the class.     They have no idea how to deal with "the real person" who is affected by all of this or the real issue.     Unions are all so different - where I worked there was a union for some employees, that would go to bat for anything. Where my husband works, you go to his union, it better be a very authentic reason or they won't do anything.     on a side note:     Motel owners to pay for harassment.     https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/motel-owners-ordered-to-pay-former-employee-15-000-following-work-place-harassment-1.3767157 "

Thanks Brenda. Another mishandled case. This one is different. It is handled through Human Rights due to the race issue.  
I agree all are wrong - the ones being discussed here are the bullying/harassment - these are under the Workplace Safety & Health umbrella.  
I may be wrong, but I believe the Human Rights seems to take action more quickly than the Workplace Safety & Health.  
 
And... to reinforce this, I even had a Safety Officer brag how they would throw "tidbits" to Workplace Safety. As long as they gave them a tidbit (even if it was to blame the employee) - they almost always got off. Once in awhile, they would have to pay a small fine. But, more often than not - they knew exactly what to say & do.

you ask: where is the union in all of this? Answered on the previous page. As one involved, I've seen the union discourage members from filing grievances - from even taking a complaint to a supervisor. I honestly believe that this CUPE is dedicated to keeping the waters smooth with the City.

Integritynhonesty said "    Brenda.. said "Human Resources people take classes and read and learn from a book. Then they are hired by the company, work for that company and only know what they have read in a book. They do not know how different harassment or bullying affect people.   They only know what they learned in class and the scenario's in the class.     They have no idea how to deal with "the real person" who is affected by all of this or the real issue.     Unions are all so different - where I worked there was a union for some employees, that would go to bat for anything. Where my husband works, you go to his union, it better be a very authentic reason or they won't do anything.     on a side note:     Motel owners to pay for harassment.     https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/motel-owners-ordered-to-pay-former-employee-15-000-following-work-place-harassment-1.3767157 " Thanks Brenda. Another mishandled case. This one is different. It is handled through Human Rights due to the race issue.   I agree all are wrong - the ones being discussed here are the bullying/harassment - these are under the Workplace Safety & Health umbrella.   I may be wrong, but I believe the Human Rights seems to take action more quickly than the Workplace Safety & Health.     And... to reinforce this, I even had a Safety Officer brag how they would throw "tidbits" to Workplace Safety. As long as they gave them a tidbit (even if it was to blame the employee) - they almost always got off. Once in awhile, they would have to pay a small fine. But, more often than not - they knew exactly what to say & do. "

My experience with Workplace Safety & Health was a positive one. They came in, did their job, gave us time to fix things, came back to check and made us adhere to the safety policies. The foreman was taken to task as he well should have been ignoring the safety issues. I found the WS&H officer very professional. The managers and foreman weren't happy.  
 
If I ever saw a WS&H officer doing the "tidbit" thing, I'd be disgusted and hopefully, rat them out. If an employee is injured or killed due to their tidbits, oh that would be trouble. MANY employees have lost limbs and their lives because companies don't follow the safety policies. Companies in Brandon are no exception. I know someone who lost part of a finger and also someone who lost their life while employed here. Fines don't bring back a life and it seems some companies never learn. We rely on Workplace Safety & Health to help keep us safe.  
 
This thread has really opened my eyes. I did not realize there were so many of us who have been through or are going through similar things. The consensus seems to be that bullying and harassment is the norm in Brandon. I suggest people in positions of power take notice and stop this crap from continuing because it sounds like we're all in the know and eventually we're not going to take it anymore.

Allie Cat said "This thread with great interest and I would like to say that bullying and/or harassment is not just found within the City of Brandon but in the government as well.   I have been bullied and harassed by one particular person I worked "for". He was an ass and is still an ass!     Even though I don't work for the government anymore, is it too late to file a complaint? I feel like we should start a "Metoo" movement and call out those that did people wrong. "

Agreed - there needs to be a movement. All workplace harassment/bullying needs to be addressed.  
 
Saw that Ontario's WCB has introduced Bill 127 - focuses on workplace harassment/bullying. While it will probably still be like jumping through hoops for an employee who is emotionally broken, it is a start. Previous links appear to show that getting WCB is long and drawn out - and would rarely "qualify." Many simply didn't even try as a result.  
 
Will also be interesting to see how other provinces may react to it. Below is the website. Since the link is quite long. Just go to:  
 
http://www.wsib.on.ca  
 
& then put 127 in the search. The bill will be accessible to clink on afterwards.

Brenda.. said "Human Resources people take classes and read and learn from a book. Then they are hired by the company, work for that company and only know what they have read in a book. They do not know how different harassment or bullying affect people.   They only know what they learned in class and the scenario's in the class.     They have no idea how to deal with "the real person" who is affected by all of this or the real issue.     Unions are all so different - where I worked there was a union for some employees, that would go to bat for anything. Where my husband works, you go to his union, it better be a very authentic reason or they won't do anything.     on a side note:     Motel owners to pay for harassment.     https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/motel-owners-ordered-to-pay-former-employee-15-000-following-work-place-harassment-1.3767157 "

Brenda,  
 
Agreed they are hired by HR after taking courses. And, yes - they work for the company. It is unfortunate they do not apply what they are taught (for those with the training - not all do have it).....I agree again, few - if any actually do the right thing. As we hear so often:  
 
It starts at the top.  
 
BUT - there are employment law courses, labour law - etc. They should know it is against employment & labour law. Everyone knows better. BUT again, they are followers. Too afraid to "rock the boat," go against the almighty in power, afraid to voice what they know is better, afraid to take a stand, afraid that if they do - they will also be "branded" as they have participated in doing to those that DO take a stand or try to do what is right, afraid they will be the next target, afraid they will never find another job  
&/or  
 
are there for the almighty dollar, are not qualified/trained as they should be, and so on....  
 
Regardless, IF they have their credentials - they should know better.  
 
Edited by Integritynhonesty, 2018-01-20 09:40:26

TEN said "    Hackeda said "    TEN said "It sounds like everyone on here is blaming management for the problems.   Now don't jump all over me.     I would suggest that the bigger problem here is co-workers that bully/harass those who do not fit the mould that THEY have created when out of sight of leadership. Then when it is reported and followed up on it becomes a he said she said situation.     What one considers bullying/harassment the other considers trying to get the co-worker to pull their weight.   You can not have supervisor/manager micro managing the workplace or then you get everyone pissed that they're treated like robots.   I've seen good workers that no one wanted to work with because they refused to use deodorant. As an employer, all I can do is suggest he change his beliefs about deodorant and personal hygiene. If he doesn't then what? " Management introduces a 'Dress Code & Hygiene Policy'. Again, once these docs are read, signed and understood by staff, it's the management's responsibility to enforce the policy. If an employee decides not to wear deodorant, the employee can be sent home (without pay) and is written up, eventually being released from the company.     Yes, it is this simple but only if managers care enough to get policies in place and then enforce those policies. " Exactly. Then management enforces the policy and the one who cries bully/harassment now changes their whining to "management just wanted to get rid of me". Moves on to his next assignment and gets bullied again and the merry-go-round continues. "

If employees don't follow policy, it is not bullying to write them up. When management targets one employee not following policy but allows others to disregard that same policy, that is an unfair workplace practice. IMO, any manager playing that game should be canned.  
 
If employees want to carry on to other workplaces and continue not to follow policy then consider the treatment harassment, they need to look at themselves.

Allie Cat said "This thread with great interest and I would like to say that bullying and/or harassment is not just found within the City of Brandon but in the government as well.   I have been bullied and harassed by one particular person I worked "for". He was an ass and is still an ass!     Even though I don't work for the government anymore, is it too late to file a complaint? I feel like we should start a "Metoo" movement and call out those that did people wrong. "

I regret not speaking up a few times when things were wrong in the workplace.  
 
One particular instance was a local business owner asking me "Are you married?" "Do you have small children?" at an interview. I didn't want to work for him after seeing he thought those questions were ok.  
 
I have metoo moments that have happened while employed with Brandon companies. Needed a paycheque which kept me from making formal complaints outside of the workplace. (VP, HR, owner did nothing).  
 
I've had my last metoo situation in any workplace and I hope you have too.

hope that these managers and people in HR are reading these pages on "ABUSE".This is one of the best ways to publicly shame them.I never see them out in public not even a grocery store.It must be an awful life living like this.What goes around comes around!

BlueBear...who are the people that you are referring to...this post keeps going back and forth to different groups and originally started with the City of Edmonton.

these managers & HR people can't be shamed in my opinion. The vast majority have no interest in doing what's right but want to preserve their own positions. I used to believe that what goes around comes around too but within the City workforce, doing nasty things usually led to promotions!!  
And to Westwood; if you haven't figured out by now that many many Brandon employers fall into this category of bullying & harassing then you haven't read all of the posts. At least I think I'm right.

It moved back and forth to City of Edmonton, Province (I think it was the Province), unionized employers, non unionized employers, etc. Sometimes when a group of like minded people talk amongst themselves they know who they are referring to but others miss it. It is pretty hard to publicly shame a group when it is ambiguous and huge. I guess the point is that these posts start all the time...people gripe about non specific situations and groups and nothing gets accomplished. I have been the target of power and abuse and I am amongst the group who doesn't usually participate because I know nothing is going to change unless people start to talk in specifics. That takes a lot of guts...guts that I don't have!!

I gave two specifics re: female lead/charge hand leaning on the bathroom door jamb when a man exited & asking " how long does it take you" then following another man to the bathroom to make sure that's where he was going. Both were laughed off by the supervisor. I even submitted these in writing; still wasn't seen as concerns.

Now a days employers have gotten really good at following Legislation and espousing theory about and doing Training on Respectful Workplaces and anti-bullying, etc. HOWEVER...what is lacking is the follow through...there seems to be a lack of follow through on being able to skillfully do thorough and fair Investigations and follow through on them. As much as I hate to say it (as I have an HR Background) but I have to agree that the Investigations do tend to favor Management as when it  
boils down to it HR employees are often lower down on the Org. Chart than the Managers they are investigating as part of complaints. What I would love to see is an independent body responsible for doing these investigations so they are more fair and equitable.

westwood said "Now a days employers have gotten really good at following Legislation and espousing theory about and doing Training on Respectful Workplaces and anti-bullying, etc. HOWEVER...what is lacking is the follow through...there seems to be a lack of follow through on being able to skillfully do thorough and fair Investigations and follow through on them. As much as I hate to say it (as I have an HR Background) but I have to agree that the Investigations do tend to favor Management as when it   boils down to it HR employees are often lower down on the Org. Chart than the Managers they are investigating as part of complaints. What I would love to see is an independent body responsible for doing these investigations so they are more fair and equitable. "

AGREED!!!  
 
The are far from fair & equitable right now. And, WS&H is NOT following up even when it is obvious - regardless of their claims of being independent & non-biased. Their Safety Officers know many of the organizations & their management & safety officers. They are very reluctant to rock the boat as well.  
 
As for the subject - or main subject of this: Perhaps the underlining one is:  
 
Perhaps WE ALL as bullied/harassed employees need to start pushing hard(er) for more action from our Minister (Cliff Cullen) & his office. We all need to start writing letters to show them how much things really do need to change.  
 
Employees throughout Manitoba need to start speaking out, otherwise, there will not be the changes that are desperately needed.  
 
Perhaps other organizations (including the City of Brandon, Province, and many others we all know of) also need to have inquiries (such as what is going on with the City of Edmonton)to see what exactly is going on inside the organizations. These inquiries need to be completely independently handled - with absolutely NO ONE from within.  
 
Edited by Integritynhonesty, 2018-01-20 14:08:00

should have been up for Brandon years ago. I note that the link is for the Edmonton Journal; well, try getting our local newspaper involved. I have, with facts through the years & they have no interest. Even when at council meetings, they "cherry pick" what to report. I asked a city councillor about a large payout from a wrongful dismissal & was told "that's an HR thing - we don't get involved". Really ???? It was a substantial amount of taxpayer money. I'm left wondering how to get anything to change when it seems that nobody that can implement change seems to care.

Large payouts have to have a reason behind them.  
 
Labour Laws protect employees (to a degree) that are wrongfully dismissed in that there are mandatory payouts based on years of service, ability to get another job, etc. Employers can get rid of anyone but they need to pay for it if there is not a valid reason.  
 
Employees that are dismissed for valid reasons are not under the same degree of protection.  
 
If there are large payouts someone has to have authorized and made the decision that they no longer want that employee around but cannot dismiss them for grounds that are not considered justified under Labour Laws.  
 
I would think that since Councillors are the ones that ensure fiscal responsibility (if that is the correct term) would need to a degree to understand and validate these payouts.

Verite said "should have been up for Brandon years ago. I note that the link is for the Edmonton Journal; well, try getting our local newspaper involved. I have, with facts through the years & they have no interest. Even when at council meetings, they "cherry pick" what to report. I asked a city councillor about a large payout from a wrongful dismissal & was told "that's an HR thing - we don't get involved". Really ???? It was a substantial amount of taxpayer money. I'm left wondering how to get anything to change when it seems that nobody that can implement change seems to care. "

Agreed. Hard to understand why this has failed to warrant concern from the media.  
 
Concern for the treatment to employees. Concern over the high additional costs to the taxpayers for the lack of accountability, additional (HUGE) costs for payouts, HUGE costs for the poor morale, HUGE costs to recruit & train further employees, and so on....

westwood said "Large payouts have to have a reason behind them.     Labour Laws protect employees (to a degree) that are wrongfully dismissed in that there are mandatory payouts based on years of service, ability to get another job, etc. Employers can get rid of anyone but they need to pay for it if there is not a valid reason.     Employees that are dismissed for valid reasons are not under the same degree of protection.     If there are large payouts someone has to have authorized and made the decision that they no longer want that employee around but cannot dismiss them for grounds that are not considered justified under Labour Laws.     I would think that since Councillors are the ones that ensure fiscal responsibility (if that is the correct term) would need to a degree to understand and validate these payouts. "

Very good points, Westwood.  
 
So - if the HR is so well versed & paid, why is there a need to provide payouts? Why are employees not only being let going wrongfully - but, why is there such a HUGE issue within with the bullying?  
 
AND - why is there not an inquiry being conducted? And, please - NOT by their very own staff. Independent, outside - NON BIASED  
 
Edited by Integritynhonesty, 2018-01-23 14:16:53

Pm'd some of you regarding sharing stories. Please check your messages.  
Thanks!