Discussions

I agree that on the prairie we need more livestock ( cattle, sheep, bison )to enhance and protect habitat, grasslands and soil in an efficient manner and to make best use of land not suitable for crop production. Many of your other comments including some of those related to fertilizer and chemical use are misleading . The consumer needs to be shown what each of us does and the reasons why we apply our methods. I believe that we have very similar goals in our desire to take care of our land but we each reach those goals in different ways and it is this diversity and producers willingness to learn from each other that will continue to advance agriculture and help us to become more sustainable.

Justasoul if Allan Savory is wrong then there is no hope for planet earth. We need to sequester carbon fast and there is now time to waste. Global warming is real. Fortunately the Agricultural faculty at the university of North Dakota confirmed all of Allan Savory's claims. Google them, also their research farm namely Menoken farm. I do not know about your claim that Gabe Brown is using poison. Until I hear it from his mouth I am not going to believe you. What he did say though is that it took him about three years to wean his fields from fertilizers and poison.  
 
Farmergeorge conventional agriculture is not sustainable. You might still be making money but our children and grandchildren are going to pay the bill. The only option that we have right now and we are running out of time is regenerative farming.  
 
Please do not give me that "Regenerative farming will only work on certain farms and certain soil types!"  
 
It works everywhere. The only thing that needs to be changed is attitudes.

I have googled them and lots of info about regenerative farming. While I accept there are "experts" with differing points of view, you seem stuck with a notion that you can cherry pick your experts while ignoring and discrediting anyone who has a different view or a more moderate approach.  
 
Do you believe the website for Brown's Ranch or is that a lie as well. I don't frankly care if you believe me.  
 
https://brownsranch.us/  
 
Edited by JustASoul, 2020-06-02 11:06:45

You are right , attitudes do need to change but we also have to be able to show what we are doing positively using science and agronomy. On my farm I can show the improvements to our soil and crops over many years through documented soil and plant tissue testing, can you do that? You have thus far said nothing to explain the building organic matter in my soil nor can you explain the abundance of wildlife , insects, earthworms and wild birds on my farm. I am far from being what you would call a conventional farmer . You need to stop describing other producers as if we are all against you. We are in this together and you can choose to work positively with other people or you can try to force them into one way ‘your way’ which is never a good approach. Most producers will adapt to change if we can see positive potential that will pay back our investment and improve our land. I can see and document the improvement to my soil, crops, hay and livestock health, production improvements and improvements to grain quality, test weight , protein and oil content and Harvestability. And we run a small but progressive family mixed farm that supports our community.

Improving soil health is a priority and no-till farming has been practiced since 1993. A diverse cropping strategy, which includes cover and companion crops are used. We have now elimnated the use of synthetic fertilizers, fungicides, and pesticides. We use minimal herbicide and are striving to eliminate it. We do not use GMOs or glyphosate

Good job. You are achieving positive outcomes. Glyphosate is a herbicide, one of the safest if used correctly that has received a bad rap through incorrect and overuse and has been surrounded by lies recently created mostly by overzealous lawyers . Genetically modified crops are harmless, there is no evidence to show otherwise and have distinct advantages when properly utilized but it is absolutely your choice not to grow them. If you are not using synthetic fertilizer then it suggests that you still apply fertilizers from natural sources such as manure or rock derived product. It is still important to ensure correct nutritional balance in the soil including macro and micro nutrients , information that can only be gained through soil tests. Tillage has a place but can definitely be overused on these soils. A diverse cropping strategy is the oldest trick in a farmers book, one that everyone should be using but sadly many don’t. If requested by a buyer can you provide detailed , documented evidence from an agronomist showing the improvement in your soil? In the years to come this will become a prerequisite before we can sell product especially if we hope to continue export programs. Telling people what we do won’t cut it , they will want documented proof showing results written by certified agronomists.  
You still fail to address the improving soil conditions , increasing organic matter and increasing insects, wildlife and birds found on my farm under a more conventional but similarly diverse system. There is more than one way to produce sustainable , nutritious food .

Did you read from what I copied from Gabe Brown's website namely that he does NOT use glyphosate?  
 
Glyphosate is but one of the ingredients in Roundup. One of the other ingredients are insecticides.  
 
Anyways my poster boy Gabe Brown (as justasoul is referring to him) is a regenerative farmer and on the grain production side of his farming enterprise he struggles to get away from herbicides!  
 
Therefore with a clear conscience I can look JM in the eyes as well as all other environmentalist and greenies and vegans everyone out there, that regenerative beef production is by far the most environmentally friendly and environmentally enhancing and regenerating way of farming out there.  
 
Regenerative beef farming is the only tool available to mankind to use our soils as a carbon sink.

As I have not seen your soil firsthand I have nothing to say about it.

Your idea of every single farmer out there practicing regenerative farming might work if there was a farmer on every quarter section, with no mortgage and no desire to actually make a living.  
 
No one is denying farmers want healthier soil. Better soil, better crops and that means more money. The issue is, it just can’t happen on such a massive scale due to the size of farms and the fact that people want to make a living at farming, not lose money every year for their entire lives.

Round up is glyphosate, that is round -up’s sole content and glyphosate is also made by other manufacturers with slightly different formulations. Glyphosate is solely a herbicide. There is NO insecticide content in glyphosate unless it has been added as part of a sprayer tank mix by the producer to treat infestations of flea beetle or the like.

Please read the label.

Gabe Brown the poster boy for regenerative farming is farming on 5000 acres. So pray tell me why do you believe only people on a quarter sections would be able to farm regenerative.  
 
Furthermore regenerative farmers are making more money than conventional farmers!

AgriculturaI round up is glyphosate consisting mostly of acids derived from salts which is used as a herbicide to control weeds, used properly at correct rates and times it is highly effective and very safe. It is NOT an insecticide but should not applied around aquatic environments ( like any chemical ) . It is one of many important tools in a producers tool box that should be used and applied with care and diligence.

Can this person back up their claims with certified soil tests taken at three depths over a number of years and plant tissue test documentation and can you do the same if it was requested? Without this important information a producer has little insight into the nutrients available in their soil or into the health of their crop and it’s nutrient uptake.  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2020-06-03 23:13:39

I doubt they’re available online but I have seen his slides in his presentation showing how all nutrient levels are increasing in his soil even though he never adds any.

Is produced by a certified independent agronomist backed up with plant tissue tests then fair enough but balanced nutrition doesn’t happen on it’s own and nutrients present in the soil are not necessarily plant available.

The university of North Dakota sends masters and Doctoral degree students every year to Gabe Brown's farm. And they measure everything. His soil is alive and is improving year after year. Some years he sequesters an inch of carbon into his soil! That is carbon coming from CO2 in the air!  
 
The university of North Dakota is now also practising regenerative farming on their research farm namely Menoken farm. You can google them and the results are out there for anybody who cares to look it up.  
 
I am exited that they have found that there grazing can now sustain 500% more animals per year and they ceiling is not in sight! This is like getting 5 more farms for free!  
 
This is way I am scratching my head if somebody would say that only people on quarter sections can do regenerative farming and that people who are applying regenerative farming is not going to make money!  
 
Farmermike please use your head.  
 
Farmergeorge if you do not believe Gabe Brown and professors at Menoken Farm why do you not go visit MBFI north of Brandon next to highway 10? Go talk to them about regenerative farming.  
 
Join the Manitoba grass and forage association and learn the newest about regenerative farming every year!

This picture is the best I could find for proof of his soil nutrients. Farm 4 is Gabe’s. Remember that he isn’t adding nutrients.

I read some information from Gabes website last night, mostly on his livestock and grazing. One thing I’ve noticed, at least around here, is the people converting or wanting to change from older practices of farming to new (in terms of grazing) fall into one of two categories - small scale or the land is paid for.  
 
I’ll explain. Gabe has a herd of 360 pairs of cattle. They also have I think it said like 100ish yearlings. On the adult cow side, normal rotational grazing in our area I can make 25-30 pairs per quarter section work for the grazing period, which is about from the end of May till hopefully mid September, approximately 120-130 days. Gabes climate allows up to 9 months on pasture, there’s the first difference. Sure I could get a few more months on grass if I had extra land that I didnt graze until september. Now, using those numbers, and while he does move cattle more often, I will assume he grazes more head per land then “normal”. Using 30 pairs per quarter as a reference, that’s 12 quarters needed for pasture. He mentions how his pasture gets 360 days off, so that means he’s got land he doesn’t graze for a full year. Now we’re up to 24 quarters. Take an average price of about $125,000 per quarter and that’s $3 million just for pasture for his adult cows.  
 
Now his grain land I didn’t get that far to see how many acres he puts in in a year, but you see where I’m going. What’s that cost?  
 
So, my point is, these practises while beneficial, is very costly to get into. If you have the land and it’s paid for, it’s a different story. Good luck starting out by walking into the bank and saying “I need 8 million to buy a farm to farm this way.”  
 
I want to do more reading on his crop yields but from what I’ve read so far a lot of the under crops he has sown is mainly for returning the organic matter into the soil. I read about the mixtures of stuff he seeds and all I can say is is love to see him harvest that in our climate.

As Brown is farming on 5000 acres the cost around here would be a minimum of 15 million dollars.  
Guess the land is possibly owned by a corporation or pension / finance group and leased out.  
There was similar tract of land going for sale up north last year I believe.

Very basic soil test result at best. It does not show the three different testing depths necessary or their respective results and does not clearly show all macro and micro nutrients as a complete test should. There’s no reference to cation exchange capacity. I think that my soil tests ( from A and L laboratory’s) detail around 15 different items ( at three different depths) from which my agronomist can formulate a clear plan . Again sustainable farming in the future will not be achieved by discrediting certain methods . I have said that there is a place for regenerative agriculture for some producers and elements will be incorporated into our operation. But for anyone to claim that one particular farming method on its own is the answer for all farms and producers is just misleading the general public and is very dangerous. Positive change will occur by producers taking some ideas from different farming methods and applying them on his or her land as we see fit.  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2020-06-04 12:37:48

Is there anywhere that shows how much he invested into this farm? What is his start up costs and such. Reading a little into him his grazing pasture has a shallow water system piping fresh water from a well. Well if farmers watered all their pasture with well water how much water would we be sucking from the ground? What is the cost to run piping throughout your land?

That pipeline you speak of is for watering the livestock, not irrigation.

You start with a quarter section and you can keep about 25 cow calf pairs for the summer.  
 
Now when you start regenerative farming you invest in electrical poly wire on a reel and step in posts and an energizer, two batteries and a battery charger. Let us say you invest $5,000.00. Say you also invest another $5,000.00 in three quarter inch pipe and two $300 gallon water troughs.  
 
On June 10th you start on one corner of your quarter section which is 160 acres. with the electrical wire you build a 2.6 acre pasture and let you cows graze there for one day. The next day you move your cows to the adjacent 2.6 acres. You have two water troughs so that you can leap frog them from pasture to pasture. After some practice I could build these pastures in under ten minutes. After day four the cows are waiting for you at the "gate".  
Your cows are becoming tame and you spot a sick animal within a day.  
In the process the cows are spreading their cow pies and urine evenly over your quarter section.  
 
The cows are on fresh grass everyday!  
 
You are mimicking the ancient buffalo migrations across the prairies at a smaller scale!  
 
At this rate it takes you 61 days to be back where you started the process and you are now grazing pastures that had rested for 60 days!  
 
And on the second round the grass is greener and more plentiful compared to quarter sections where cows were turned out and left there for the summer to graze wherever they like.  
 
Year one you will find that you have extended your normal grazing season for at least a month. The only reason why I had to stop grazing on year one was when the water began to freeze in the pipes.  
 
So if 25 cows are eating one bale of hay per day you saved 30 bales in year one. Say you paid $70.00/bale then you have saved $2,100.00  
 
During the winter instead of feeding your cows in the corral and using bale feeders you unroll your bales on the bare spots or poorer parts of your farm. That attracts a lot of urine and cow pies as well as all the seeds that are in the bales. Those areas where you unrolled your bales becomes the most fertile areas on your farm!  
 
Furthermore I do not know where the heck it is coming from but out of the blue I am getting more and more legumes in my pasture like clover and alfalfa.  
 
The other miracle is that I do not have a parasite problem anymore! It take the parasite eggs 7 days to hatch and by that time I am seven moves away. The parasites are surviving for about 21 days. But my cows are not going to be back before 60 days.  
 
I started with regenerative cow calf pair farming 4 years ago. At that time I did not know about the existence of either Gabe Brown or Allan Savory. I got my initial information from the MBFI research farm north of Brandon.  
 
This year I have on pasture 90 goats with 120 kids. This is the equivalent of 15 cows. Also I have 95 cow calf pairs. plus 30 sheep (5 cows) and then also 10 replacement heifers.  
 
So in total I have 125 cows on the half section I am farming on. If you take 50 cow calf pairs for the normal for a half section then with 125 pairs I now 125% above average.  
 
This means that my initial $10,000. investment bought me the equivalent of three quarter sections! And my municipal taxes did not go up as it would if I had bought more land!  
 
Also my cows are in pasture since May 10th and I am confident that I will have enough pasture until freeze up.  
 
So from May 10th until June 10th I saved 187 hay bales! At current hay prices that is $13,125.00! In October and November and the first half of December I am going to save $32,750.00! Thus in total I am going to save $45,875.00 in hay.  
 
It al started with a $10,000.00 investment and a bit of faith.  
 
Menoken Farm (Research farm of the University of North Dakota) are now at 500% more animals with no ceiling in sight. Allan Savory in Zimbabwe found the ceiling at 700%  
 
Therefore do you not understand that you do not need more farms to make Regenerative farming work?  
 
Do you not understand that Regenerative farming is good for the environment as well as for your bank account?  
 
Also I hope that JM the vegan will understand that I can produce more meat without using more land and I am benefitting the environment because my farm became a carbon sink. Also my farm is a haven for bees and birds. Also out of nowhere there are now two springs on my land which was not there when I bought the farm five years ago. And they are both running year round. Not gallons of water though. In the midst of last summer each spring produced about the equivalent of water that would run in a 5/8 inch garden hose 24/7. But still it is a haven for insects, birds and even white tail dear.  
 
And JM this was accomplished with cows!

Where does your winter fodder, straw for bedding and feed grain (or substitute come from)?  
Is your native prairie grasses? We should not graze native grass too early or too late in the year as it can harm them.  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2020-06-05 00:31:58

That should have read “is your pasture native prairie grass?”

Earlier you mentioned I was biased and Yes of course I am just like you are with what you do. We all have our biases, however its a matter of being willing to hear another opinion and learn from that. So, I have been listening and researching what you have been talking about in terms of regenerative farming and how you are utilizing grazing techniques to benefit the environment and increase your meat capacity.  
 
Through my research I keep coming across numerous studys and expert testimony that point out the flaws in holistic management and planned grazing techniques.  
 
The Charter Grazing Trials undertaken in Rhodesia between 1969 - 1975 was reviewed in 2002 by scientists and they found that the cattle in the trial needed supplemental feed, became stressed and fatigued and lost profits due to the smaller weight of the cows. They also pointed out that Savory grazing technique failed to produce improvement in grass cover. Overall they concluded that no grazing system yet has shown the capacity to overcome the long term effects of overstocking and or drought on vegetation production.  
 
Research done in North America have also found that hoof action from having larger number of animals on small areas for short period of times reduced water filtration and grasses failed to revive using the Savory methods. In fact one of the largest and most comprehensive studies in North America found that holistic management on prairie grass found a definite decline of plant growth.  
 
Even more interesting is this notion that the cows actions are sequestering more carbon. Again, this has been shown to be incorrect and overly exaggerated. Carbon sequestering works best when the animals and plants achieve a natural balance. The more species an ecosystem has the better it functions. Achieving the natural carbon cycle of animals breathing, ingesting, digesting and decomposing. Meaning the best way to sequester carbon on the fields is to allow the animal to live and die on that same field so the rotting carcass along with the accumulated nutrients goes back into the soil and human intervention was minimal to none at all.  
 
Now, I really don't think that's part of your business model to allow your cattle to live their life in their entirety on your pasture. By removing those animals for slaughter your actually doing more harm than good . So, I agree we can utilize cattle and other animals to sequester carbon and keep our lands healthy however only if its done in a way that reduces their footprint on the land and they can live and die on that same land.  
 
This idea that we are mimicking free roaming herds of the past is a bit off the mark. Human interaction leads to infrastructure being built on lands, extermination of predators to protect herds, manufacturing of supplemental feeds and manipulating the genetics of livestock. These practices are not what nature did long ago. In fact ecosystems did not evolve with just large animals but in concert with other creatures too. Human interaction has disrupted that natural process.  
 
Beef is one of the least efficient foods to produce in terms of feed input to food output.  
 
So, overall I am still not convinced and stand by my notion that we need to eat less meat or none at all! However, I realize people will still eat meat, so lets do it in a way that minimally impacts the environment all while letting our grasslands thrive and sequester that carbon. Most experts agree that improving the finishing phase of cattle is where the focus should be and there is lots of research going into making improvements in that area.  
 
Its clear that there is no magic solution that will save us all. We are going to have differing points of view based on our beliefs which is fine. However I am all for finding solutions to fixing our food sustainability issues which we all agree need addressing. And i see that livestock are part of the solution, its just figuring out how they fit into the solution in the long term.  
 
Edited by Your Majesty, 2020-06-05 09:31:46

I have nothing against the grazing methods used by Traluks, the positives outweigh any negatives on the northern plains. However also please research the ‘Twice over grazing system’ by Professor Lee Manske from North Dakota. This is the system that I use to graze native grasses and I like it because it is not a mob graze system and it works with the growing patterns of the grass and the season and uses the sustainable stocking density for any given piece of pasture . This method is supported by Manitoba habitat and heritage with a couple of modifications for our area namely preserving trees, wild flowers, birds and wildlife which have all increased in my pastures.  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2020-06-05 10:39:58

I just want to say that its clear to me both of you are passionate and working hard at producing food in a sustainable way. I realize that its continuous work in progress in terms of finding the best ways to produce food that are sustainable. There is clearly not a one size fits all solution. I must say thank you to both of you and other farmers that are practicing sustainable farming. Its through the continuous trial and error that we will find optimal methods to producing food. Regardless of the solutions we find we will always identify new problems to solve. I really appreciate hearing both of your perspectives and learning about different farming practices. So thank you for that!

Please read the grazinghandbook.com by L. Manske PHD, Range scientist at North Dakota State University , Dickenson Research Extension Center for more information on biologically effective prairie grasslands management.