Discussions

In the last few days Canada hosted the G7 meeting, and at that meeting there appeared to be one member who seemed to attend with one purpose, and that purpose seemed to be to convince all other members that we, and other countries, have to sign onto the idea of America First.  
Seems President Trump has a real problem with our program on managing something which Canadians decide many years ago, and that was a guarenteed supply of what was considered a stable in family life, and that was the dairy sector. I know there are people who don't believe in supply management.  
Now I don't know if people read links provide, but I'm going to provide a link, which is a bit of a read, to show that sometimes a free market system can cause major problems for both consumers and producers.  
 
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/americas-farmers-are-in-crisis-and-theyre-looking-to-trump-for-relief  
 
Now back to our Prime Minister, how do you feel he handled the American strong arm tactics. One thing he maybe should of brought up the point that the 2019 agriculture bill, which could be looked at as a subsity, totals over 25 billion dollars, and supports American farmers in many different ways.  
The idea of a level playing field sometimes seems hypocritical.

Though we''''re all in for some short-term pain due to this lunacy, I suspect it will be Americans that will get the short end of the stick in the long term.  
 
It''''s a big world. And the longer these tactics keep up, the longer the recovery period of their economy.  
 
It''''s hard for me to judge our PM''''s actions, because really, what is there to be said. All it takes is one voice in Trump''''s ear and "BAM!" . . . square one.  
 
Edited by Simonwalcal, 2018-06-10 21:20:00

Conservative past and present leaders in Canada are backing Trudeau, Harper, Scheer, Doug Ford. While Doug Ford only won the Ontario Premeirship, his province would feel the greatest impact. And for these people to be supporting Trudeau in this says something big. Trudeau made it known long before the G7 meeting that Canada will retaliate dollar for dollar until the Americans end their tariff. The only way Trump could enact tariffs without Congress approval is to use the threat to National Security BS!!  
 
It's also the American damn fault for producing far more milk through the use of hormones than they can consume. I read that Wisconsin alone produces more milk than Canada as a whole. And they want to dump the excess in Canada.  
 
Trump doesn't want a level playing field, he want's tilted 90 degrees in his favour and for everyone to think America First. He's acting like America is a 3rd world country that has been raped of it's products and is piss poor. When they take advantage of other countries to increase their status. Canada has been the US whipping post for many years.  
 
But this latest Twitter outburst seems to more of a show before meeting with the North Korean leader. He didn't want to be shown up by Canada as weak and an idiot. Trump wanted to show the other G7 members that he IS the boss/king/god!!  
 
Trudeau needs to keep standing up for Canada against the US.

As a invited guest to a summit he can say what he wants and inspite people opinions he currently speaks for Americans.  
 
In my opinion he is wrong on steel but despite the yanks wanting our dairy protections drop now it will not happen for a year or four. It like the former wheat board is protectionism. Pure and simple.I know all the positives of it but when new technology came out(invented by the Americans) and Canadian producers borrow the tech add it to our protectionist umbrella it igs too much. Protecting old and current methods is okay but the dairy farmers abused it.  
 
Where is the money for innovation coming from? Necessity! Winscon ran with it( fine filtered milk?) and was shut out by marketing board changes.  
 
Trudeau did well here at the G7. He is aware no one wins a tit for tat trade war. Except the Americans lose less. Their economy can absorb a firefight with ours. We shut the wheat tap off our farmers also starve. Their livings depend on selling their product to them or others.The dairy farmers only rely on us. We are a convenient market for them. No hard sell to foreign countries needed for them.  
 
 
 
Justins stance will need to backed up by the Federal treasury if this spat turns bigger. We may be right but still hurting economically.  
 
Edited by Doug, 2018-06-10 21:51:03

also interested in seeing how Canadian Trump supporters think of this. And how Canadian Conservatives feel about Harper and Scheer supporting Trudeau on his response. For some it will be sacrilegious and a betrayal.

Trump just made many new tweets blaming Justin and Canada for the ills of the US. Still going on about our dairy system hurting their farmers.

This is just my opinion, and could be wrong, but here goes.  
The US had a pretty good run after the Second World War, the technology from that period allowed them to move forward as much of the rest of the world rebuilt. By the time we got into the early 60's some countries had rebuilt to the stage that they were now back in the position to be competative in the world market, and that is where the problems for Unites States began, the idea of the American dream led to a lifestyle that was not sustainable by trade, and that lifestyle also led to products that were unaffordable by those producing them, which led to importation of cheaper world products, and if you cannot afford the product you produce it is pretty hard to do anything but try and sell those products on the world market.  
The problems that the US have can go back to the idea of " if your outflow exceeds your income, then your upkeep will become your downfall".  
We live in a world where most people refuse to look in the mirror when problems arise, they find it much easier to attack others, and when you can't address the problems with fact, you resort to ad hominem attacks.

I'm not big into the political scene but try to understand some things .One especially is who the hell died and made Trump God . I don't think I have come across anyone who has such an inflated ego but knows so little on how to handle his position . A very ignorant "man " who thinks everyone owes him . Keep a stiff spine Justin and don't back down from him .

greenthumb said "I'm not big into the political scene but try to understand some things .One especially is who the hell died and made Trump God . I don't think I have come across anyone who has such an inflated ego but knows so little on how to handle his position . A very ignorant "man " who thinks everyone owes him . Keep a stiff spine Justin and don't back down from him . "

and BOYCOTT as many US produced items as you can on an ongoing basis, sometimes small acts turn into big action

I'm not sure how Trump expects to pick a fight with the entire world and win.  
 
He could've had his dairy deal if he didn't pull out of Trans Pacific.

Boycott USA LOL!!!! Lot of naive people in here.Take a look in your house & tell me how many products you have that are made in the USA. Tell me how many products you have that are made in Canada. While your at it, tell me how many products you have that are made in China. 99% of what you have is made in China. Why is this your attitude towards US when China has been ripping off the Canadian economy for years.  
 
Lot of people mad at President Trump for putting his people first. Myself, I don''t blame the man one bit. Its about time a leader had that attitude. Maybe if Canada had that same attitude our economy would be in good shape. Look at what Trump has done for his country (Unemployment lowest its been, job numbers rising, money returning back to the country, immigration, North Korea.) Lot of people need to pull their heads out of the sand and realize this guy is serious.  
 
If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at our politicians who put every other country before our own. Only then will things change here.  
 
Edited by MichaelP, 2018-06-11 16:05:10

Hey! said "I'm not sure how Trump expects to pick a fight with the entire world and win.     He could've had his dairy deal if he didn't pull out of Trans Pacific. "

So, trump wants to whine about our dairy tariff? Maybe he should shut-up before our tobacco growers in Ontario starts getting on him for the USA having a 350% (that's right, three-hundred-fifty percent) tariff on Canadian Tobacco. Fair is fair.  
 
We have a good dairy industry and we should preserve it for the good of our dairy farmers.  
 
The wheat/grain farmers got their wish of no wheat board and now they are crying for protection from foreign pricing. Well, they got what they wanted. They can cry but it is their own fault.  
 
The Dairy producers are smarter than that and I hope we, as a nation, support our Dairy Farmers.

MichaelP said "Boycott USA LOL!!!! Lot of naive people in here.Take a look in your house & tell me how many products you have that are made in the USA. Tell me how many products you have that are made in Canada. While your at it, tell me how many products you have that are made in China. 99% of what you have is made in China. Why is this your attitude towards US when China has been ripping off the Canadian economy for years.     Lot of people mad at President Trump for putting his people first. Myself, I don''t blame the man one bit. Its about time a leader had that attitude. Maybe if Canada had that same attitude our economy would be in good shape. Look at what Trump has done for his country (Unemployment lowest its been, job numbers rising, money returning back to the country, immigration, North Korea.) Lot of people need to pull their heads out of the sand and realize this guy is serious.     If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at our politicians who put every other country before our own. Only then will things change here.     Edited by MichaelP, 2018-06-11 16:05:10"

You must be watching too much Fox News Network if you believe trump is for "USA first." FIRST? First is trump, second are all his "friends" with money who want to get more money from the USA government (see the new USA tax bill) and last is the USA, good old America.  
 
You really think people are angry with trump for "putting his people" first? You are not very astute in the geopolitical world are you?? You aren''''t watching what he is disassembling in the USA (their weak medicare/medicaid/social security systems, the environmental protection act, etc. etc.). All of what is being disassembled has NOTHING to do with bettering the lives of the people of the USA, it betters his own or his friends'''' pocketbooks.  
 
The man knows nothing about geopolitics (I''d put dibs that you know and understand more than trump) and is only out to get accolades for his own weak, fragile and disgusting ego-driven agenda.  
 
Our country, and others in the G6 +1 are doing quite well in the world. We don''''t need or want a "mini-trump" to come and destroy our respect on the international front as trump has done in the USA.  
 
Racism, Zenophobia and bigotry are the only things that trump''s "put America first" campaign have increased. That is not a benefit to any nation. IF you think the world should operate as isolationalists? Then you support the racism, zenophobia and bigotry that comes with it. I, and most Canadians, find that isolationism that gives rise to those horrid behaviors and ideologies an anathema to our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  
 
If it weren''t for the isolationism of the USA, and if you are a white, "Christian" (just as trump is) male?? You might have been able to find a job, but it will take 3 of them to live above the poverty rate, in the USA. But, as we all now know, Canadians are a threat to donnie''''s fragile man-child ego. So, you better just hang tight to Canada and its place in the world. We are rising and the USA is a failing state under their current regime.  
 
Edited by CheapTrickz, 2018-06-11 18:03:06

Trudeau did well. The support across all our domestic political parties suggests this. The scorn heaped upon Trump by other heads of state like Macron and Merkel also serve as testament to the rightness of the Canadian position.  
 
Our dairy situation is the sort of 'Canada first' approach that the US should strive to emulate with their own brand. But this requires regulation, and regulation is the bane of a currently prevailing US ideology.  
 
The funny thing about all this dairy tariff debacle is that it's the direct result of Chinese-subsidized steel that had been flooding the US market for decades now. Without regulation and oversight, cheap Chinese steel handily decimated domestic US production and competition.  
 
Here in Canada the tariffs imposed upon US dairy products exist because the US subsidizes its dairy farmers the same way China subsidizes its steel. The US literally produces more dairy products than it can consume and export. Trump wants Canada to drop the dairy tariff so that they can flood our market with their subsidized goods and ruin our farmers. Trump wants to do to Canada with dairy, what China did to the US with steel.  
 
To be fair, the steel situation isn't his fault, it's a problem every president since at least the turn of the millennium (probably even earlier) inherited from the previous one. The US should have taken steps to protect their steel industry back in the 90s. But taking your frustrations out on your allies 30+ years down the road defies logic.  
 
Regardless, in the here and now, US domestic steel production has effectively been hamstrung, there is a crisis among US diary farmers (over-production, bankruptcies, and suicides), and this can largely be traced back to a lack of regulation and oversight. This is result of the belief that a completely unrestricted free market is best because that way everything should be as cheap as possible in theory. It has cost them the well-being and livelihood of tens of thousands of their citizens.  
 
Trump blames other countries, other people, because it's convenient and easy. The idea that the problems the US now face are also problems that started in the US is a much harder pill to swallow. One that he certainly won't because truth is anathema to his entire Administration.

You have the bottom line there bang on Don everyone else caught up and the US ran out of markets.

Trying to make a living farming has taught me things that not only apply to farming but also to business in general. We could look at just about any business and see that supply and demand play the biggest part of surviving or not. When a person says that a government is creating an unlevel playing field by subsidizing, you can look at businesses in the same area, one may be very conservative on spending, and asign a certain percentage to saving, when tough times hit you count on your savings to hopefully get you through, this in a way could be called subsidizing your business. Countries around the world all worry about the economic security of their countries, and set up programs to protect what they consider important to the national economy, sometimes it is not even business related, as on the case of universal health care.  
For myself there is no such thing as dumping, there is a willing buyer, and a willing seller, and price determines if trade will take place. I'm sitting here typing this comment on an Apple phone, developed in USA, but produced in China, this is known as capitalism, but subsidies are paid to protect certain segments of each counties national interests.  
To have a level playing field, all conditions would have to be equal, and that doesn't happen anywhere in the world. If we want to look at the dairy industry I would likely say that nutritional requirements for dairy cattle on our county are considerably different than they are 600-700 miles to the south, and not only would nutrition be a concern but also facilities as well. If a nation was to lose something like it's dairy industry then we could view things as President Trump does, it is a national security issue and the product would need to be imported, which not only leaves the population vulnerable to price swings, but also the chance of it being used in the inevitable trade disputes.  
Guess what I'm saying with all my yapping is at times subidies are a reality of business and governments.

I agree that subsidies are partially a reality of business and governments, but I think the issue is that Trump is disingenuous in how he's handling this. He's talking about dairy, but the subsidy issue in agriculture generally is much, much larger in the US and has much more at stake.  
 
Why does the US produce so much dairy? One piece of this puzzle is that it produces too much corn. It has to go somewhere, so one of the ways they get rid of it is by feeding it to cattle, which has a calorie conversion rate of only about 3% (dairy is roughly 17%). It takes a lot of corn calories to get calories from cows.  
 
So to open up new dairy markets, in Canada for example, would also open up markets for over-produced corn upchain. We know corn is over-produced because of subsidy. Why does is corn so heavily subsidized? Because such a large percentage of American agricultural acreage is devoted to it. It represents such a huge slice of their agricultural commodity that even small fluctuations can cause serious damage to their economy without the stablization of subsidy.  
 
So it kind of becomes a chicken and the egg problem. The US produces too much corn because it's subsidized, but they have to subsidize it because they produce so much of it. So the dairy problem really isn't just a dairy problem, but a corn problem as well.  
 
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/time-to-rethink-corn/  
 
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/11/10/105002

Shutoff the electricity being exported to the USA.  
How long till those factories shut down, how long till New York city is in the dark and very hot.  
Tell Trump that we hold a lot more power than he gives us credit for .

And during his last election the Wisconsin dairy farmers told him that their problem is not Canadian dairy, but their own government in allowing USA producers to over produce.  
Trump is ignorant of numbers and facts.

sprinter said "And during his last election the Wisconsin dairy farmers told him that their problem is not Canadian dairy, but their own government in allowing USA producers to over produce.   Trump is ignorant of numbers and facts. "

Is to be a bully and try and push someone around to get his way. He is not smart enough to lead and fix his own policy. Good on Trudeau for making the point that Canada will not be pushed around.

Without getting into an old wheat board debate, I must correct you on one of your comments. The majority of the wheat farmers wanted to retain the wheat board but the old guard of the Reform Party/born again Conservatives took it away. Proof of majority-8 of 10 farmer elected wheat board members that were consistently elected were pro wheat board supporters. The cry now is because of the money we are losing to the multi-national grain companies.

SensibleFarmer said "Without getting into an old wheat board debate, I must correct you on one of your comments. The majority of the wheat farmers wanted to retain the wheat board but the old guard of the Reform Party/born again Conservatives took it away. Proof of majority-8 of 10 farmer elected wheat board members that were consistently elected were pro wheat board supporters. The cry now is because of the money we are losing to the multi-national grain companies. "

I thought the Conservatives can do no wrong and it's Trudeau's fault for the demise of the Wheat Board. I'm sure some die hard Conservatives blame it on Trudeau anyways.

SensibleFarmer said "Without getting into an old wheat board debate, I must correct you on one of your comments. The majority of the wheat farmers wanted to retain the wheat board but the old guard of the Reform Party/born again Conservatives took it away. Proof of majority-8 of 10 farmer elected wheat board members that were consistently elected were pro wheat board supporters. The cry now is because of the money we are losing to the multi-national grain companies. "

The Wheat Board is gone because rural farm-based towns/economies overwhelmingly voted for Harper. The people on the wheat board? Meh. The farmers and their families all voted for Harper. They got what they deserved.  
 
Perhaps more people should pay attention to the Tommy Douglas story of Mouseland. (see attached link to Mouseland as told by Kiefer Sutherland and Tommy Douglas).  
 
 
 
Now that the Wheat Board is gone, those farmers who voted for Harper can cry all they want, their market with the USA and foreign nationals is what they asked for when they gave Harper majority after majority.  
 
The Wheat Board is gone and it was voted away by the farmers now crying about how they thought the black cat would be better than the white cat when in reality? They should have been looking at electing the mouse.  
 
I have no pity on the farmers who consistently vote conservative against their own best interests.  
 
The only decent thing I can say about the PCs is that they are currently on board with the tariff and trade "discussions" that PM Trudeau has had with the trump regime. It's the one and only thing I can bring to mind that is of useful purpose to the citizens of CANADA.

I consider it a mistaken idea that it was rural conservative voters that ended the wheat board. There is a reason that there is a conservative mentality among rural residents, part of it has to do with the reality of capitalism and world markets as well as a responsible attitude for good economic policy, but one also has to look at the other side which is the acceptance of the cooperative idea, which sometimes is looked at a socialist idea.  
When a group of people, like farmers, make up only 3% of the population of the country and a government is elected by a national vote the concerns of any minority can be ignored. I once looked up the meaning of throwing the baby out with the bath water, and realized that too many times this is very evident in the political process. Instead of dealing with the specifics of a program, both sides muddy the water until the process of actually addressing the issues becomes impossible.  
I wiil stand up for his stance on the trade issues, as do many people from other parties, maybe because the hurt can affect all Canadians, but then I look at the carbon tax which affects a large part of the country unfairly just because of geographical differences.  
Oh well! Majority rules reguardless .

The whole trouble with our electoral system is that our politicians who are elected are usually more than average wealthy. There should be a check list of common sense criteria that has to be passed before you can run for any office.

From what I understand only goes into effect when a certain level is reached in US dairy imports to Canada. It's basically to prevent importing more than what Canada needs. So it's not in effect at all times, Americans can still export dairy products to Canada without tariffs. But once that level is reached, any further imports are subject to the tariffs.  
 
And there doesn't seem to be much interest in ending our supply management system and in ways I think it's good. Of course it has it's negatives as well. In a small country like Canada, things like this need to be done or we end up like what's in the US. Far more supply than demand. The US also subsidies their dairy farmers that encourage over production. and eventual waste of product.  
 
It seems like a few want to get rid of our system solely to appease Trump.