Discussions

The Liberals will have some goodies for families.  
A household earning 140K with 3 kids over 6 will receive $384/month tax free. 1 kid under 6 and 2 over 6 will net that family an extra $467/month. Much better than the CPC's $160 and $60 a month cheques that were taxable.  
 
You can play around with the calculator here.  
https://www.liberal.ca/realchange/helping-families/  
 
Also the middle tax bracket will be reduced from 22% to 20.5%. They will pay for this by removing the CPC child tax benefits, and by removing income splitting for couples.

I'm probably going to get flamed for this but how about we STOP paying people to have kids. Its amazing how many people think you should be getting more money just because you had kids you can't support.

..........  
 
Edited by hutchster, 2015-10-20 01:26:23

Paying people to have kids. Paying people on welfare to have (more) kids. Paying people not to work. For many, it's all about the goodies. Keep them dependant and they'll keep voting for the politician/party giving them the most "goodies".  
 
No, we shouldn't be paying people, especially on Welfare, to have kids, but how do we stop doing it?  
 
This old writing actually seems to apply more and more as time goes by, especially in places like Canada, the US and Europe. Did you notice that the refugees are not just content to stop at the first European countries they enter, but are trying to get to the countries with the most generous welfare programs? I mean, after all, wouldn't you?  
 
Free goodies!  
 
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/108530-a-democracy-cannot-exist-as-a-permanent-form-of-government  
 
Not "Fear and Loathing", just something to think about, or maybe just an interesting quote.  
 
 

Triplethreat said "Paying people to have kids. Paying people on welfare to have (more) kids. Paying people not to work. For many, it's all about the goodies. Keep them dependant and they'll keep voting for the politician/party giving them the most "goodies".     No, we shouldn't be paying people, especially on Welfare, to have kids, but how do we stop doing it?     This old writing actually seems to apply more and more as time goes by, especially in places like Canada, the US and Europe. Did you notice that the refugees are not just content to stop at the first European countries they enter, but are trying to get to the countries with the most generous welfare programs? I mean, after all, wouldn't you?     Free goodies!     http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/108530-a-democracy-cannot-exist-as-a-permanent-form-of-government     Not "Fear and Loathing", just something to think about, or maybe just an interesting quote.       "

Why would Migrants stop in places like Europe or the US, when they can come here and have free healthcare, social assistance and be paid to have multiple kids that we will pay more schooling fees to teach them English than our own born and bred kids? We also have entire government departments that help them do their resumes, place them in jobs, let them take as many free courses as they can.....  
 
And of course people are going to stay at home on welfare and have as many kids as they want, it is most likely more profitable for them to do so.  
 
Our welfare system needs a complete overhaul. It was meant as a stop gap measure, not a way of life, and Canada has turned it into a career.  
 
How do we stop doing it? First, welfare families should not get any of the CCTB or UCC - as it is tied to INCOME, and on welfare they are making no income, they should be cut off. People on welfare should never get their own cash - arrangements should be made to pay landlords directly, accounts should be set up at certain grocery stores to let people temporarily pick up staple foods (ie NO alcohol or tobacco). If a family with school aged kids needs training to get a job, they should get it and be placed. Welfare or assistance should never be allowed to go over say a year or draws. Like EI - if you have not paid into the system and worked a specific amount, you cannot have free reign over taking money from the system.  
 
I believe in teaching people to fish so they can feed themselves, not handing them that fish.

foxtrot11 said "    Triplethreat said "Paying people to have kids. Paying people on welfare to have (more) kids. Paying people not to work. For many, it's all about the goodies. Keep them dependant and they'll keep voting for the politician/party giving them the most "goodies".     No, we shouldn't be paying people, especially on Welfare, to have kids, but how do we stop doing it?     This old writing actually seems to apply more and more as time goes by, especially in places like Canada, the US and Europe. Did you notice that the refugees are not just content to stop at the first European countries they enter, but are trying to get to the countries with the most generous welfare programs? I mean, after all, wouldn't you?     Free goodies!     http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/108530-a-democracy-cannot-exist-as-a-permanent-form-of-government     Not "Fear and Loathing", just something to think about, or maybe just an interesting quote.       " Why would Migrants stop in places like Europe or the US, when they can come here and have free healthcare, social assistance and be paid to have multiple kids that we will pay more schooling fees to teach them English than our own born and bred kids? We also have entire government departments that help them do their resumes, place them in jobs, let them take as many free courses as they can.....     And of course people are going to stay at home on welfare and have as many kids as they want, it is most likely more profitable for them to do so.     Our welfare system needs a complete overhaul. It was meant as a stop gap measure, not a way of life, and Canada has turned it into a career.     How do we stop doing it? First, welfare families should not get any of the CCTB or UCC - as it is tied to INCOME, and on welfare they are making no income, they should be cut off. People on welfare should never get their own cash - arrangements should be made to pay landlords directly, accounts should be set up at certain grocery stores to let people temporarily pick up staple foods (ie NO alcohol or tobacco). If a family with school aged kids needs training to get a job, they should get it and be placed. Welfare or assistance should never be allowed to go over say a year or draws. Like EI - if you have not paid into the system and worked a specific amount, you cannot have free reign over taking money from the system.     I believe in teaching people to fish so they can feed themselves, not handing them that fish. "

to the link I provided, a family with no income and 4 kids (2 under 6, 2 over 6) would receive almost $2000 a month. Add this to other payments and one can make a decent living by not working.  
 
I'm not saying everyone will have 4 kids, but I do see it, and it will give incentive for people to have more kids.

Maybe stop and don't have kids unless you can afford them and the lifestyle you want to have!!

Don't know if people are aware of this but when looking at whether an economy under a capitalist idea is doing well population growth is a contributing factor. A local example could be used, Mapleleaf built in the Brandon area with many benefits to the local economy and I have my doubts that it would have shown such benefits without immigration. The capitalist system is a good system, but it depends on selling products to consumer and that means population has to grow  
There are two people I enjoy listening to, they are Warren Buffet, the other is Alan Greenspan, and both have warned about the dangers of where we are headed, an the link provided by Triplethreat sort of explains not only the fault of democracy but also capitalism or any other system we adopt.

it is hard to do but imo i think voting for the best thing for Canada is the way we should vote, not who gets me more stuff!!!  
 
having kids is an example but so are students wanting loan breaks and things that help them right now, voting for people now will get them a break they hope from the cheap student debt but they will pay for for the rest of their lives, like compound interest,as the same people tax their out of school tax bracket to death to provide the immediate gratification of the masses  
 
idk but i rather pay for my own wants and needs now and keep what i work for latter but with our system it seems if you cant beat them join them so maybe ill work less so i can enjoy all the benefit checks

All of society benefits from an educated, skilled population, don't we? Don't we all benefit from having enough doctors and nurses for instance? Also, Canada, since before confederation, has offered incentives for increasing population, doesn't anyone remember the Quebec baby bonuses, $5000 for the first kid etc., from social studies? We are not overpopulated here and from the closure of small town schools etc., you can see that there are many ways to benefit from an influx of people.  
Why do tax credits for the improvement of society lead to an attack on welfare? So if I receive a tax benefit for the dependents that I support with my income, am I some kind of parasite? Honestly, I don't begrudge the taxes that I pay, because I want to live in a decent place where people have the opportunities to reach their potential regardless of how rich or poor their parents are.  
 
Should it be gratification? No, but we DO all benefit from a just society.

will agree with CRP. Seeing too much of that now. Plus, why cant these girls on welfare with children get a job? Anyone I know who is single works to provide for their children, even if they get subsidized daycare or rent. At least they are showing their kids that in order to survive we must work. And as far as receiving tax credits. Those credits are available to everyone so no you are not a parasite. It is when one segment of the population gets it into their heads that they can get money without having to work because another segment will just be taxed at a higher rate. Then those people are parasites.

Sorbet said "    foxtrot11 said "    Triplethreat said "Paying people to have kids. Paying people on welfare to have (more) kids. Paying people not to work. For many, it's all about the goodies. Keep them dependant and they'll keep voting for the politician/party giving them the most "goodies".     No, we shouldn't be paying people, especially on Welfare, to have kids, but how do we stop doing it?     This old writing actually seems to apply more and more as time goes by, especially in places like Canada, the US and Europe. Did you notice that the refugees are not just content to stop at the first European countries they enter, but are trying to get to the countries with the most generous welfare programs? I mean, after all, wouldn't you?     Free goodies!     http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/108530-a-democracy-cannot-exist-as-a-permanent-form-of-government     Not "Fear and Loathing", just something to think about, or maybe just an interesting quote.       " Why would Migrants stop in places like Europe or the US, when they can come here and have free healthcare, social assistance and be paid to have multiple kids that we will pay more schooling fees to teach them English than our own born and bred kids? We also have entire government departments that help them do their resumes, place them in jobs, let them take as many free courses as they can.....     And of course people are going to stay at home on welfare and have as many kids as they want, it is most likely more profitable for them to do so.     Our welfare system needs a complete overhaul. It was meant as a stop gap measure, not a way of life, and Canada has turned it into a career.     How do we stop doing it? First, welfare families should not get any of the CCTB or UCC - as it is tied to INCOME, and on welfare they are making no income, they should be cut off. People on welfare should never get their own cash - arrangements should be made to pay landlords directly, accounts should be set up at certain grocery stores to let people temporarily pick up staple foods (ie NO alcohol or tobacco). If a family with school aged kids needs training to get a job, they should get it and be placed. Welfare or assistance should never be allowed to go over say a year or draws. Like EI - if you have not paid into the system and worked a specific amount, you cannot have free reign over taking money from the system.     I believe in teaching people to fish so they can feed themselves, not handing them that fish. " to the link I provided, a family with no income and 4 kids (2 under 6, 2 over 6) would receive almost $2000 a month. Add this to other payments and one can make a decent living by not working.     I'm not saying everyone will have 4 kids, but I do see it, and it will give incentive for people to have more kids. "

could not have said it better!  
 
 

kat333 said "    Sorbet said "    foxtrot11 said "    Triplethreat said "Paying people to have kids. Paying people on welfare to have (more) kids. Paying people not to work. For many, it's all about the goodies. Keep them dependant and they'll keep voting for the politician/party giving them the most "goodies".     No, we shouldn't be paying people, especially on Welfare, to have kids, but how do we stop doing it?     This old writing actually seems to apply more and more as time goes by, especially in places like Canada, the US and Europe. Did you notice that the refugees are not just content to stop at the first European countries they enter, but are trying to get to the countries with the most generous welfare programs? I mean, after all, wouldn't you?     Free goodies!     http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/108530-a-democracy-cannot-exist-as-a-permanent-form-of-government     Not "Fear and Loathing", just something to think about, or maybe just an interesting quote.       " Why would Migrants stop in places like Europe or the US, when they can come here and have free healthcare, social assistance and be paid to have multiple kids that we will pay more schooling fees to teach them English than our own born and bred kids? We also have entire government departments that help them do their resumes, place them in jobs, let them take as many free courses as they can.....     And of course people are going to stay at home on welfare and have as many kids as they want, it is most likely more profitable for them to do so.     Our welfare system needs a complete overhaul. It was meant as a stop gap measure, not a way of life, and Canada has turned it into a career.     How do we stop doing it? First, welfare families should not get any of the CCTB or UCC - as it is tied to INCOME, and on welfare they are making no income, they should be cut off. People on welfare should never get their own cash - arrangements should be made to pay landlords directly, accounts should be set up at certain grocery stores to let people temporarily pick up staple foods (ie NO alcohol or tobacco). If a family with school aged kids needs training to get a job, they should get it and be placed. Welfare or assistance should never be allowed to go over say a year or draws. Like EI - if you have not paid into the system and worked a specific amount, you cannot have free reign over taking money from the system.     I believe in teaching people to fish so they can feed themselves, not handing them that fish. " to the link I provided, a family with no income and 4 kids (2 under 6, 2 over 6) would receive almost $2000 a month. Add this to other payments and one can make a decent living by not working.     I'm not saying everyone will have 4 kids, but I do see it, and it will give incentive for people to have more kids. " could not have said it better!       "

If I'm reading this right, having kids looks affordable now.  
 
Two ways to $60,000  
1:take 5 years to get a university education.  
 
2: take 5 years to have 4 children - 24,000 tax free cash and get a 15 dollar an hour job and send your kids to daycare.  
That should equal $48,000 take home cash or near equal to a young lady that earns 60,000 a year based on her education.  
 
Example 1 will not qualify for provincial daycare subsidy.  
Example 2 will get full subsidy and several other freebies.  
 
 
 
Edited by loeog, 2015-10-20 18:28:38

You can't really compare cheaper education with free money for having kids. An educated workforce benefits the entire country. Look at places like Germany and Sweden, both of which have free post secondary school. That type of system works really well but its not one we can support here because of all the subsidies offered to people having more kids and the vast amount of money thrown at certain demographic groups.  
 
Here is an idea, we should implement a child tax (not benefit) where we charge people extra for having more than two kids as well as removing any extra benefits for certain ethnic groups of people (that's racist).  
 
That money should go directly to providing free/subsidized post secondary education.

I don't see how this benefits the middle class at all. The middle class is doing well enough that they don't need the government money.  
 
The, lower, class needs the help. I am pretty sure Trudeau meant to say he wants to help the poor people in Canada.  
 
Or maybe I am just wrong and don't know what income range makes up middle class

Garret, I think that was the flaw in his campaign, he never really said what the income range was of the middle class.  
 
And CRP...lol but I pretty much agree with you. I mean have all the kids you want if you yourself are supporting them but....maybe you have the solution.

Why should the lowest income earners always get the tax breaks ??  
 
Why shouldn't the middle class get tax breaks? Harper made sure the middle class didn't get any real tax breaks for the last 9+ years.  
 
Just because combined household income is close to or near 100,000.00 you say they don't need tax breaks.  
 
Do you even know how much taxes are paid on that combined household income of +- 100K ?  
 

Zekeland said "Why should the lowest income earners always get the tax breaks ??     Why shouldn't the middle class get tax breaks? Harper made sure the middle class didn't get any real tax breaks for the last 9+ years.     Just because combined household income is close to or near 100,000.00 you say they don't need tax breaks.     Do you even know how much taxes are paid on that combined household income of +- 100K ?     "

I agree!!!! Last income tax time I think our household had around 35 thousand in taxes taken off. Now why should the low income people get all the breaks? Why isn't the government saying to me.....hey you worked a pile of overtime, taking away from your family......here is some money back so you can spend it and take a vacation with your family. No I get a tax bill saying you didn't pay enough taxes so here is a bill for more.

Middle class absolutely deserves tax breaks. A parent of 5 on welfare receives over $3000 net each month, close to $40000 tax free each year between provincial and federal programs. That is more than a working person earning $60000 takes home.

middle class tax "breaks" are not really a hand out to rich as lots of people think they are a slight reduction in rate which is already higher then most everybody else  
 
ex. 150k a year combined pays $52,332 or 40.77% giving a $2000. income splitting allowance reduces that to $51,404 a reduction of $892. everyone only sees the 892 and says wow thats a hge refund, thats not fair buuut they dont see the 50k the family did pay compared to someone making 40k who pays a whooping $7,809 or 18.77% still 43,595. lower then what the other guy paid after the tax "break" that is also without any other benefit checks someone might qualify for, family allowance ect that the higher income tax payer doesn't receive.  
 
another thing people dont see is how much OT or other sacrifices the family making 150k has, yes every family has sacrifices but it is each persons choice what and where they want to sacrifice to make their life there own, imo no one should have to pay a higher bill because others chose to sacrifice income to have time with their families  
 
 
As far as comparing education to having kids as far as our economy goes it is comparable, kids add to our tax base just the same as a higher educated population, the issue with free or subsidized education is it devalues the product making it less of a pay out to do but also makes it mandatory to have, really a vicious cycle  
 
what i was trying to say before is giving tax breaks to the students, or really any group, is like the country using a credit card so they dont have to delay gratification, most people know how CC work and it is the same with our country's finances, we get a small break now but see the above tax example for how much that $250. credit cost us down the line  
 
one thing to keep in mind when we are talking about taxes is that the government doesnt MAKE money, they TAKE our money so the more incentives they offer the more someone HAS to PAY, so why is it ok to take from someone who to give to someone else?  
 
 
 
Edited by traveller, 2015-10-21 11:59:50

u

Where is the money they intend to supplement the tax breaks going to come from,, are we robbing Peter to pay Paul.

that is the only way. You cannot give one person a tax break without first taxing another person.

I think it's sad that the liberals plan is to double the tax free amount paid per child all the way to the 140,000 150,000 taxable income range.  
At least the conservatives taxed its payments back.  
 
With any luck, they will start taxing pot soon. The extra taxes will help the people without kids that will be paying the taxes for these handouts.  
 
Edited by loeog, 2015-10-21 17:59:59

I just have a comment to make about people assuming that low income people had kids that they couldn't afford…..  
 
Many, many people get married, have kids and then something happens….ie the father leaves the mother or visa versa. Now this mother or father is a single parent and is expected to raise the children alone (with some child support….which by the way doesn't cover much).  
 
Did this single parent set out to have kids alone?…..absolutely not. Are they doing the best that they can under the circumstances?….totally! I used to be in a single parent situation and I can tell you that that little bit of support from the government (child tax credit, universal child care benefit) really did help.  
 
I am sure that there are many many other scenarios that leave parents low income (a death in the family, disabilities, loss of a job etc). So please, don't judge all low income parents and lump us all in the same category as those who are abusing the system.  
 
just my two cents

I feel like all of your "examples" are the limited number, where as the bulk of the low income people have more kids than they can comfortably afford. Hell one kid is expensive enough with dual incomes I couldn't imagine raising and kid and still having a life on less. But with Trudeau's help I guess I will find out soon enough

Here's what Canada as a whole needs. We need someone to represent us as a whole country, not someone trying to please a certain "class" of people to get votes. Everyone in this country is equal whether they make $10000 a year or $10000000 a year. Everyone should be paying the same percentage of taxes and receiving the same services and benefits no matter what you make. As for having children, it should be no different than buying a car money wise. If you can't afford it, you don't have it. What we really need for a governing body is someone like judge Judy for example that doesn't beat around the bush and doesn't put up with crap and is firm but very fair.

Whose to say this is actually going to happen?? And if it does, that does not mean it will be any time soon. Politicians make lots of campaign promises but that does not mean they will actually follow through on them. Don't start getting your hopes up yet.

I have to agree with this, and said it before. Straight across the board. For example if you tax at 30%, do it straight across the board. If you make $10,000.00, your paying $3000.00, and if your making $100000.00, your paying $30000. Having one tax percentage, keeps everyone in a level playing field. If one chooses to work alot of overtime, and wants to get ahead in life, he isn't being punished for it tax wise, and hey, if you want to do the bare minimum, or nothing, that's up to you, but you should get taxed the same as the hard working person. If I see that a lazy freeloader is getting $1500.00 a month for 3 kids, and I get a petty $43.00 per month, and I'm working my ass off, trying to get ahead in life, and trying to better my children's lives, who is the idot? Me. Obviously.

sledhead & wdvl - i agree and imagine how much easier and cheaper taxes would be if they got rid of all the special exemptions and just taxed at a flat rate  
 
One of the US presidential candidates proposed a 9+9+9 rule, where all taxes would be 9% across the board, 9% income tax, 9% sales tax 9% capitol gains tax, I thought the plan wasn't bad from what i knew of it but the main point would be after the personal exemption that everyone gets then EVERYONE is taxed the same rate, I cant see whats fairer then that ....except for a flat personal tax where everyone pays the same share of the bill ...but that would never happen lol