Discussions

What is your opinion on the Case in Calgary - where the one guy killed 5 other grads -  
 
now he is saying he was hearing God tell him to shoot them - that he thought they were Zombies, Vampires, [crap from Video games it seems] - and now the judge says he is mentally unstable and NOT Liable for KILLING those 5 people - what is your stance on this defence???  
 
What do you think needs to change/is OK with this ruling???  
 
Lets talk about this . . .

This is what happens with untreated mental illness due to ignorance or fear of stigma. It may feel like the legal system is failing... And that we need to consider changes to it, but it goes beyond the legal system. This is a mental health system issue that has failed someone and it ended up with devastating consequences.

Choosing not to get treatment for your mental illness is making a choice, and due to choice he took lives. whether or not he was having an episode he ultimately made the choices that led to him killing people.  
 
The only stigma to mental illness is when someone chooses not to get treatment, old enough to know the difference between right and wrong old enough to be held criminally liable for his actions

Garret said "Choosing not to get treatment for your mental illness is making a choice, and due to choice he took lives. whether or not he was having an episode he ultimately made the choices that led to him killing people.     The only stigma to mental illness is when someone chooses not to get treatment, old enough to know the difference between right and wrong old enough to be held criminally liable for his actions "

the only stigma to mental illness is not when a person will not get treatment. That has nothing to do with stigma. That only means a person may not realize they have an illness, don''t know were the resources are to get treatment, etc.  
 
Stigma to mental illness is people not understanding, calling you weak, telling you to snap out of it, calling you a mental or a retard.  
 
Edited by Brenda, 2016-05-26 12:47:12

That unless he had a support network or people he saw regularly, how could they tell? Mental illness is hard to diagnose no matter what. Add in the cost of medications and it's a very big loosing battle. However IF they had a previous diagnosis before hand that makes it harder not to want to condemn them.

I'm tired of criminals hiding behind any option they can to try and justify their actions, everything from mental illness to being drunk to a bad childhood. There is no excuse for lack of self control, anybody who commits these crimes is, messed up in the head, they lack respect for human life. put him in jail. mental illness my foot!

stonepicker said "I'm tired of criminals hiding behind any option they can to try and justify their actions, everything from mental illness to being drunk to a bad childhood. There is no excuse for lack of self control, anybody who commits these crimes is, messed up in the head, they lack respect for human life. put him in jail. mental illness my foot! "

Do you know anything about mental illness? Do you have friends or family with the illness? Have you spend time in the Centre for Adult psychatrity? Well, I have a mental illness, both sides of my family also and I have spent time in CAAP. It is attitudes like yours that make people with mental illness to not come forward and get help or support. Depending on the type of mental illness (there are 100''s in case you didn''t know), you can do awful things, because you are to afraid to ask for help.  
 
I have Depression, then their is Bi-polar, Schizophrenia and they all have sub names. Example - what I really have is "treatment resistant depression", go to Mayo Clinic and have a read. I am sad, I have lost my job of 22 yrs., someone else with a different illness will hear voices telling them to do things, Bi-Polar - up and down, etc.  
 
Even if you know someone with a mental illness, you have no idea what they are going through. You can be supportive, read about, say...yes i know how you feel, but not one person that has never had it will ever know.  
 
Sorry to take this off of course a little bit, but until you understand, you can't make an informed decision.  
 
Shove your "mental illness foot" up your ass! I feel great now.  
 
Edited by Brenda, 2016-05-26 20:53:57

Time do do away with ncr defense lock em up in mental ward for life if they commit these types of crimes for public safety. If you can't tell right from wrong stay away from the public for life.

You both should count your lucky stars. From your posts it''s clear that you haven''t yet had a loved one affected by mental illness. Mental illness is like no other! All sorts of terrible diseases out there where at times you beat it and other times the individual passes away, be it cancer, MS, Lou Gherig, etc. It''s certainly difficult to watch a loved one go through some of these diseases, but with mental illness, it''s a whole new ball game. Mental illness will often handcuff you from all of lifes normalcy that both garret & stonepicker take for granted. It will handcuff you not for a week, a month or a year. Individuals often suffer for decades or their entire life! You canot appreciate Mental illness unless you''ve been affected by it directly or through a loved one. A great movie that could help garret &stonepicker appreciate (at leadt a little bit) what People with mental experience is "Shutter Island". Medication doesn''t cure mental illness and I think that professionals in the field are often just simply throwing darts at a target when it comes to medicating patients. As far as the decision taken in regards to this case. Well, I feel extremely saddened at the tragedy and don''t have an answer. Locking someone up for life because of a psychotic episode is not right. While building up, the first psychotic episode one goes through is much like a heart attack. It''s a surprise to everyone!!!! Did the accused have a history of psychosis or was this the first time. If it was his first time, then I understand the judges decision. I feel for the deceased family members, but the accused needs help. A prison sentence will not "teach him a lesson" as he was physically present during the murders, but his mind was not. Being drunk or on drugs is no excuse for a crime as getting high or drunk is a choice that an individual makes. One does not choose to go in a psychotic state.  
 
Edited by 70`s guy, 2016-05-26 22:29:06

I get what stone picker is saying. Now wait, don't throw me to the wolves ebrandon. They could have said it a bit nicer. I have friends and family that have legitimate mental health illnesses and it is sad and hard to understand as an outsider. They are seeking help and talking about it which is awesome and commendable. I've tried researching and understanding their points of views and trying to relate to their problems and it's not easy.  
 
What I do have a problem with is an average Joe blow who has not been diagnosed with a mental illness, can do a bad or criminal act then cries mental illness after the fact. Where's the accountability for their actions? And are they now seeking treatment? Are they now diagnosed with a mental illness or do they just not want to deal with the fact that they messed up and actions have consequences?  
For example, It seems like every second person I know has anxiety. To me, this has grown to be a serious epidemic and just over the top. So when I ask a coworker or friend why they haven't followed through on a project at work, answered a phone/email/text, or they get busy waitressing, at a retail job, etc they claim they have anxiety and can't deal with their situation. 99% of these so called anxiety issues have never been diagnosed by a medical professional and people are just using this term to get out of any accountability to their job or relationships with friends/family. And yes this can make people a bit jaded towards mental health illnesses.  
 
I think that mental health awareness is very important and am an advocate for speaking up about it and not being ashamed, seeking help and seeking diagnosis. I just hope people don't take advantage of the movement to be open about mental health and try to pass off their own shortcomings as mental health issues to try to get out of real consequences for their actions.

Discrediting my statements by saying I don't know what it is like is pretty bad, how do you know I don't suffer from a form a mental illness but keep it in check due to medication and treatment? Do I? Don't I? You don't know so you can't say.  
 
You missed the point of what I said. Do you think if the person has the wherewithal to defend themselves in court doesn't at least acknowledge what they did as wrong? So what they did was wrong, should they not be held accountable? Because let me tell you if all it takes to get away with murder is to say the voices in your head made me do it, a quick Google search on a mental illness before the crime lands you no jail time. People will always abuse it if there is an easy way out.  
 
If you a person suffering in Silence I sympathize with you. The second you become a person who affects someone else's life, regardless of the reason(mental health, poor childhood, no morals, bad life situation) then you are criminal and should be treated as such. Why should someone else have to deal with the consequences of your actions? What happened to good old fashioned accountability.  
 
I always have and always will have no sympathy for people affected by their own poor decision making processes.

Perhaps you might glean some more insight by reading this - and watching this Video -  
 
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/matthew-de-grood-found-not-criminally-responsible-for-stabbing-five-people-to-death-at-calgary-party  
 
Hope some of you might expand your knowledge base some - and stop putting the Stigma on Mental Health issues.  
 
I was in a relationship with a guy for 10 years, and he has never taken the time to read up on Depression/PTSD/TBI/Anxiety impairment etc. . . looks like some others need some education on Mental Health Issues as well.  
 
Edited by whatthewhat, 2016-05-27 00:31:53

This sickens me. Truly disgusting.  
 
If you want to commit genocide for **** sakes, just say god told you to do it and away you go, free from punishment. Don't like that person? Kill them, god told you to do it. Want to rob a store? God thinks its a good idea. Who are you to argue?  
 
Don't blame society, don't blame video games, don't blame alcohol, uprising, relatives, family, mental issues. No, This it total BS. What is wrong with people these days? Who in their right mind could even defend this guy in what he did, let along go along with the fairy tale crap he fed the courts? Man, I'm pissed.  
 
"He had mental issues" Then where the h*** was the family to deal with it? Why was he not on meds? Where was the family, his friends? No, he played the system to justify some sick fantasy, and he needs to be punished.  
 
He will get a few years in some mental house, and then within 5 he will be living in society. Can't happen? Look at Vince Lee. This needs to stop.  
 
If these people are really doing "what god told them", then lets really live the Bible days, eye for an eye.  
 
You know what that means right? Short drop and a sudden stop for him.

FarmerMike said "This sickens me. Truly disgusting.     If you want to commit genocide for **** sakes, just say god told you to do it and away you go, free from punishment. Don't like that person? Kill them, god told you to do it. Want to rob a store? God thinks its a good idea. Who are you to argue?     Don't blame society, don't blame video games, don't blame alcohol, uprising, relatives, family, mental issues. No, This it total BS. What is wrong with people these days? Who in their right mind could even defend this guy in what he did, let along go along with the fairy tale crap he fed the courts? Man, I'm pissed.     "He had mental issues" Then where the h*** was the family to deal with it? Why was he not on meds? Where was the family, his friends? No, he played the system to justify some sick fantasy, and he needs to be punished.     He will get a few years in some mental house, and then within 5 he will be living in society. Can't happen? Look at Vince Lee. This needs to stop.     If these people are really doing "what god told them", then lets really live the Bible days, eye for an eye.     You know what that means right? Short drop and a sudden stop for him. "

you say he had a mental illness where was his family ect.  
 
 
Some people will have a mental illness and just believe that is the way life is supposed to be. They don't know any better and don't get help, support they need. If they are afraid of the stigma, they won't even acknowledge it, because if you do, the stigma comes out.  
 
I was sick for years and didn't know what was wrong, but was able to "pretend it wasn't there".  
 
This just shows that people do not care or know anything about mental illness, until it comes up in a case like this. Go to the Mayo clinic and learn something.

tafeel said "Time do do away with ncr defense lock em up in mental ward for life if they commit these types of crimes for public safety. If you can't tell right from wrong stay away from the public for life. "

Educate yourself, with certain types of mental illness's you can't tell wrong from right.

Is the way the mental health system works. Leaving the family of these individuals responsible for the everyday management of these people is ineffective. There are no family support programs that offer support for these families. It's a process of playing with meditations and sending them home and hoping for the best. Often leaving a spouse or caregiver to balance out the family as well as the live of the loved one who is dealing with the illness. And if you say "outsiders" don't truly understand what is happening to the individual, you are sadly mistaken. Dealing with a mental illness is unbelievably difficult and life changing. Watching a loved one deal with it while dealing with the needs of the other individuals within that family unit is also unbelievably difficult and life changing. There should be a place people who are suffering can go to have meds adjusted,offer counseling for the individual as well as those who are effected directly by the illness. And CA is not the answer as we have been down that road and sadly it enabled the major depression our family is dealing with because getting up in the morning is a "choice" which in its self was a major part of the problem. Mental illness has all but destroyed my family and taken someone from me whom I've been grieving for for 3 long years while he is still alive and physically healthy. I live 8n constant fear of "side effects" of the medication for myself and my kids while I try and pull the family together. Mental health support is poorly ineffective and breaks down families, and costs many people their lives. When will people wake up and realize the send them home and wait approach is not working. When will they realize seeing a psychiatrist once every three months to change meds and not really talk about the issue is not helpful? And getting into a mental health worker is easy but those apoitment are limited as well. In the end it's the families responsibility to "wait and see" while incredible damage is being done to those who suffer,and those who live it. Don't tell me I don't understand because I don't have it. But I certainly have lived a complete hell for the past 3 years. It's time for changes to this broken system.

great post, but as with my husband, he is living with me, he see's my daily struggles, he reads information, but, he does not completely understand it, as does anyone until they themselves go through it. Yes, he has seen my life crumble, he comes to all my psych and mental health worker appointments, but he does not have a mental health illness, so who knows more than it than most people (like yourself), you and my husband may understand it, but until you have dealt with it YOURSELF, you never know what it feels like.  
the brain is an amazing organ - mine never stops.  
 
I am sorry you are grieving, mental illness not only effects the patient, it can destroy families.

You have stated it perfectly!  
 
I wish I could have had your back up during the inquest into my son's death. Even though my Son's death was an accident. There was an inquest because he had cap care.  
 
With support we may have gotten the judge to take the opportunity to make better recommendations for Mental health workers.  
 
Now it will be up to he Winnipeg courts when and if inquests are called in the cases of the two adults Mr. Bricker and Mrs. Curtis.  
 
I pray these families can band together and make some badly needed changes. I hope they are strong enough for their future battle!  
 
Edited by sharon kucher, 2016-05-27 08:14:26

Truly sorry for your experience. I do know first hand how mental illness creates stess within the entire family and your post was excellent and bang on! Life experiences forms who we are as individuals when it comes to having an opinion on hot topics such as this case from Calgary. I'll throw "farmermike" in the same pool as "Garret"& "Stonepicker". Your views are of those that fuel the stigma surrounding "mental illness". You have strong views on this subject not because you're bad people, but because you've never experienced the hardship of watching a loved one go through a "psychotic" episode. It is truly a scary and awakening event indeed. One that I wouldn't wish on anyone! It changes your lives forever!!! I'm not talking about someone with a tad of social anxiety. No, I'm talikng about when mental illness rolls into a "psychotic" episode and destroys the beauty of an individual and emprisions all their dreams and potential. The first psychotic episode is a total surprise to everyone, not only the one experiencing the illness. I at one point think that I had the same views as you three until my life changed forever because of a loved being affected by mental illness. You three are lucky to be living in a life where mental illness has not taken over the normalcy of life that you obviously enjoy. Others are not so lucky! There are no easy snswer as thtowing them away and locking the key. They are sons and daughters who through no fault of their own did horrible acts. Think of the poor young mother in Winnipeg a few years ago that killed her kids and then self. By all accounts she was a loving and beautiful woman who couldn't cope with the stresses of life and had a "psychotic" episode. This person never in her right mind would have done that to her kids. She was out of touch with reality during the ordeal. She wasn't a monster that the act would lead us to beleive. Same with this kid from Calgary. It wasn't him that murderred, it was the psychosis. How do you sentence the psychosis? No easy answer.

So what you are saying that having a mental illness absolves you of responsibility of your actions?  
 
So you are basically a wild animal free to do whatever you want. If you can't control yourself and you are a danger to society what happened in Calgary is a somber reminder of what can happen, and I would be damned if a person that MURDERED five innocent people would be out from behind bars in their life time.  
 
This is not the same as someone that has a break down or episode at home that is unbearable to watch, this was a young man who ended the lives of FIVE people.  
 
Stop defending a mass murderer because of a mental illness

Garret said "So what you are saying that having a mental illness absolves you of responsibility of your actions?     So you are basically a wild animal free to do whatever you want. If you can't control yourself and you are a danger to society what happened in Calgary is a somber reminder of what can happen, and I would be damned if a person that MURDERED five innocent people would be out from behind bars in their life time.     This is not the same as someone that has a break down or episode at home that is unbearable to watch, this was a young man who ended the lives of FIVE people.     Stop defending a mass murderer because of a mental illness "

with your high and might attitude until you have read anything about mental illness - Mayo Clinic is a good place to start. Someone who has a breakdown at home has a complete different mental illness as someone who ended the lives of people. You cannot put mental illness into one pot.  
 
As I said I have severe depression, it's a mental illness. Sub form of my severe depression is that it is really called treatment resistant depression (as stated before) My depression is not going to go out and end the lives of people. That would be a different type of mental illness.  
 
You people talk about, why didn't he take meds? I have been on 10 medications along with therapy and not one of those medications worked. So, you take a medication, remembering that it needs at least weeks to know if it will work effectively. If it does not, you have to wean yourself slowly off this medication. You try another, wait another six week, nope that didn't work either. So he could have been between medications, not found the most effective. The medication that finally worked for me was one made back in the 50's. Of course psych don't try those, as there are so many interactions with food, so they try all the new one's first. It is just not as easy on going on a med and being healthy! It is finding the correct med and therapy and the most awful stay for two months in the psych ward while they asses you.  
 
Edited by Brenda, 2016-05-27 08:29:27

I can't imagine what it is like to have or suffer with a mental illness, there are probably no words to actually describe it. And to the families that are in the position to have to deal with that every day my respect is there for you completely. There are obviously many people on here that are in that position, but I don't think that there are many people on here who have had a child, husband, wife, father, mother etc. murdered. Please understand, This is not an attack on anyone who is challanged by mental illness, but it is an attack on people's safety. It is saying that in some cases it is ok to murder someone, or in this case multiple people. In my books there is NO reason, excuse, justification to do that.  
 
Put yourself in those families shoes, have your child or children murdered for whatever reason and see if you're "OK" with it. Mental illness needs a lot more awareness, but it still does not give anyone the right to murder.

You're more articulate than me, well said. These days everyone has an excuse for what they've done, criminals are making a mockery of the justice system. And like garrett says, how do any of you know what i know or have experienced as far as mental health issues? You don't. It does get tiring though when people on here that disagree with you that right away they consider you uninformed, biased, racist etc. If you kill someone, some on here are saying, well no it really wasn't him, well...ya it was,put him in jail because innocent people aren't safe with him at large.

The charge of 'murder' involves intent, and being declared NCR means that the person was unable to have intent. They are not murderers. People who are found not criminally responsible for their actions (whether it be a minor offence or a major one like killing someone) are NOT ABLE to be responsible for their actions at the time, and therefore NOT ABLE to be held accountable at any time. That's how the system works, it is not like in some movies, where people are easily declared NCR, or 'fool' the system. The vast majority of people who have a psychotic break, are NOT violent. The vast majority of people who have a psychotic break are able to be treated and not pose a risk to themselves or others. The people involved in declaring someone NCR and their treatment plan are highly educated experts in the field of psychiatry.

If a healthy adult could be held responsible for killing someone, why can't an abnormal adult? Just because they think different? Isn't the law same for every citizen?  
And all those mental issues sympathisers, I am a licensed care provider in Brandon's mental health facility, so, I do know what the illnesses are. but that 'cannot' be an excuse to kill the lives.

cosmo55 said "If a healthy adult could be held responsible for killing someone, why can't an abnormal adult? Just because they think different? Isn't the law same for every citizen?   And all those mental issues sympathisers, I am a licensed care provider in Brandon's mental health facility, so, I do know what the illnesses are. but that 'cannot' be an excuse to kill the lives. "

You are a care provider for challenged individuals?  
 
With your attitude, I would suggest you are in the wrong line of work. I hope you never are in any way associated with a family member of mine who is challenged.

My posts aren't an assault on mental illness, It is an assault on criminals. If you kill someone you can't be trusted out in public not to do it again.  
 
Stop bringing up that you suffer from depression and are doing everything right, we aren't judging you, we are judging a person who ended the lives of 5 innocent people. How would you feel if it was one of your children who's lives were ended by someone with a mental illness? Would you be like oh it is okay they couldn't control themselves so I won't mind if they hang out with my other surviving family members.

VTB said "    cosmo55 said "If a healthy adult could be held responsible for killing someone, why can't an abnormal adult? Just because they think different? Isn't the law same for every citizen?   And all those mental issues sympathisers, I am a licensed care provider in Brandon's mental health facility, so, I do know what the illnesses are. but that 'cannot' be an excuse to kill the lives. " You are a care provider for challenged individuals?     With your attitude, I would suggest you are in the wrong line of work. I hope you never are in any way associated with a family member of mine who is challenged. "

No he has the reality of dealing with it every day. You don't think he sees people play the system. How many have to die with there killers since you don't like the term murderers set free. And yes one or two years in a padded facility is set free. Oh to not have any consequences for our actions what a liberal utopia. Please explain to Tim macleans parents how justice was done or the five families who lost their children in Calgary. But let's all have compassion for those who take others lives. When did the world go so upside down.

So,since I'm not very well informed the matter...does every person that has a mental attack on themselves always have "God" talk to them? Because to me, I find it very odd that "God told me to do it" only comes up as a defence when someone is killed. Why is it when a person has an attack and say, walks into traffic and causes an accident, they don't say "God told me to redirect traffic." You never hear or see it. But yet, that is the key to getting away with murder.

The OP asked what was our stance and what we would change. In my eyes murder is the action of ending another human beings life. Accidents happen, but this wasn't an accident(whether mentally ill or not). Intent is a thought, something I can't judge 100% correctly. So if you can guarantee that he had 0% intent then please let me know how you know. For all we know, he had intent and just didn't say he did. I'm not saying it is the case but it IS a possibility that there was intent, and if there is a possibility that he intended to do what he did then he doesn't deserve to get off.