Discussions

My heart is absolutely breaking..... I truly can not understand all of the hate in this world. My heart goes out to each and everyone who has been directly or I directly affected.

To murder someone just because of who they love is so wrong.

I still think because of the internet, facebook, twitter, media, etc - the world is so small and everytime some crazy person does something horrendous - there seems to be so many copy-cat crazies do their own thing in their part of the world and we wonder why are things like this happening - just a thought.  
My heart goes out to the lives lost.

I'm not sure this attack wad against these people because of who they love-or if it was simply that it was a popular nightclub packed with people-making it a good location for a terrorist who wanted to kill as many people as possible?  
 
Of course if the killer was actually a radicalized IS supporter then he would have been likely to hate gays .  
 
So senseless, whatever his reason.

murder is wrong!  
 
wtf is the matter with people these days? absolutely sickening! no value for human life!

The one common factor in the majority of these killings is the "guns". Seems to me a solution isn't really that complicated.

No, the common factor in these cases is a deranged lunatic with no value for life or others lives.  
 
Guns don't kill people. Idiots with guns kill people.

Well then jimithing:  
 
Ban cars from the road so drunks can't kill people when they drive.  
 
Ban doctors/nurses because of all the deaths from malpractice (more so in the US).  
 
Ban knives so that people can't use them to stab people.  
 
Ban MMA fighting, it gives kids the wrong impression.  
 
Ban airplanes, because of what happened in 9/11  
 
 
See where this is going? You can only go so far by making legal, law abiding citizens do so much. Restrict them all you want, criminals will still find ways around them. You could completely get rid of all guns in Canada, do you think it would eliminate criminals from committing crimes?

I agree, its idiots WITH guns that kill people, not guns alone.  
 
However, guns, especially certain types of guns, do facilitate these idiots to kill more people then they would have without these guns.  
In this shooting, like other recent mass US shootings an AR-15 military style assault rifle (with high capacity magazine) was used, with a fast finger this gun can fire 45 rounds/min. Far more lethality then whats needed for hunting or home defense. There is no legitimate utilitarian purpose for high capacity assault rifles.  
 
In Canada, unlike the US, these types of guns are highly regulated, and high capacity magazines outright prohibited, which is why we don't get those types of mass shootings.  
 
Looking at Japan, where all guns are essentially banned, they get about 0.06 gun deaths/100,000 people. In the US, where guns are common and largely unregulated, the number is almost TWO THOUSAND times higher at 10.4/100,000.  
 
It's a pretty straight-forward linear relationship- more guns=more gun deaths. More assualt rifles= larger mass shootings.  
 
But I think Canada has the right balance of gun regulation, I don't think something should be outright banned because it can facilitate idiots to kill people, in that case perhaps we should ban automobiles as well. This is all more of a US issue.

FarmerMike said "No, the common factor in these cases is a deranged lunatic with no value for life or others lives.     Guns don't kill people. Idiots with guns kill people. "

Stop the idiots from getting guns....problem solved

Assault weapons were made for one purpose: TO KILL PEOPLE.  
 
All of the other things that you mentioned have other purposes and, when used as intended, do not result in mass murder. You very conveniently and deliberately overlook that very simple idea.  
 
If the individual in Orlando had gone into that nightclub accompanied by a nurse, I doubt that there would be over 50 dead.

"guns don't kill people. People kill people"  
 
 
"This is a fantastic argument for those who can't tell the difference between one death and a dozen. Absolutely, a murderer can often kill one person or two with a knife before being stopped. But to really rack up those mind-blowing death counts – to make sure that many lives are destroyed and families ruined in the space of five or 10 minutes – you need a gun. If all you care about is apportioning blame and declaring that someone does or does not have murderous intent, then by all means, claim a knife and a gun are equivalent weapons. For those of us who are more worried about preventing unnecessary deaths than merely acknowledging the hate that resides in some people's hearts, however, the sheer amount of damage a gun can do is reason to limit who can get their hands on one"

You got it Randy, we need to prevent the wrong people from getting guns.  
 
Now, why are people scared of "assault" rifles? Two reasons - the look of them, and not having enough education.  
 
First, lets look at this gun here: http://www.gunsumerreports.com/Ruger_SR-22/Ruger_SR-22_59.JPG  
 
Now, this looks very scary, a full out military weapon right? I own this gun. It is a simple .22 rifle. I have two 25 round magazines with it. Perfectly legal to have, I use it to shoot gophers, rodents and targets. There is nothing wrong with this gun, it is the same as the old .22 that your parents and grand parents used.  
 
Now compare these two:  
 
1) http://files.harrispublications.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2014/01/MasterPiece-Arms-MPA308BA-Bolt-Action-Rifle.jpg  
 
2) http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/10294/11015451_2.jpg?v=8CE316522894CE0  
 
Both of these guns are .308. Both are legal to own, both are legal to hunt with. The thing is people are scared of the first one because it looks bad.  
 
If you want a silly rule in our gun laws, that first picture of the .22, I can legally go out and buy a 100 round drum style magazine for it. These scary "assault" rifles, they are restricted (in Canada) and are limited to a 5 round magazine. Now, several states in the US have different magazine size limits, some are 10, some are 30. Does this mean that a criminal cant get a 30 round magazine in Canada for his restricted gun? He sure could. Its 100% illegal and he could face up to 10 years in jail if caught with it. CRIMINALS DONT CARE. So to say that assault weapons mean more killing is wrong, a person could get a 100 round magazine on a legal to use .22 and have just as deadly effect.  
 
Now obviously the rules in the US are different then we have here, and I am not in favor of gun violence. I own and use guns responsibly, and I enjoy the sport of shooting. People need to be made aware of what guns are, and be properly educated on them, before we have these people making laws, when they just don't know.  
 
 
It doesn't matter what a gun looks like, if used for the wrong reasons, it can be deadly. It doesn't matter if it can fit in your hand, or it takes 5 people to move it. Yes, there are military weapons, and those are used for war. Do we need to own heavy weapons like that? No, but should we be able to shoot them in the right, controlled places (like ranges)? Why not?  
 
Granted, my examples don't all end in mass murder (well planes could be), but the point is the same - you cant ban one thing because of the actions of one person. Otherwise, all my examples are valid. Could a person use a car to kill multiple people? Sure could. He could drive through a crowded area and that would be devastating.  
 
LeafsM - Unfortunately, with (some) people being as messed up as they are, be it by anger, uprising, parents, friends, religion, anti-religion, political views, sexual views, etc....people WILL find a way to harm others. If you think taking away all guns in the world will prevent some people from doing harm to others, you are wrong. If you were right, why, oh why, in the last 100 years hasn't our leaders came up with this idea? And why hasn't it been implemented. Why do we need our military's equipped like they are, why do we even need militarys? If there were no guns, there would be no violence right?

Know why this thread is so bent on guns.  
We should call it what it is. If I say " it''s going to rain terribly next week, every day!'' That should not be considerred spreading "rainophobia" as I am tells ng the truth according to weather reports. I don''t know ehy this thread is not focused on the real issue and I am not spreading "Islamophobia" as I''m telling the truth. This was an act of "Islamic terrorism" and that''s what we should be discussing. It''s an Islamic terrorist attack against a soft target. If guns were totally banned in the US, then this "madman", Islamic terrorist probably would have strapped on a suicide vest or planted an IED. Gun control cannot stop Islamic terrorism. However, lack of Gun control makes it easier forthe  
To terrorise.  
 
Edited by 70`s guy, 2016-06-12 15:50:08

Exactly right!  
an Islamic terrorist will simply turn to explosive devices if he cannot get his hands on any guns...but I would suspect an Islamic terrorist would get a gun even if all law abiding citizens were prohibited from having them.

Adam Lanza the white teenager who shot and killed 26 school children in Sandy Hook was said to have mental health issues. nothing to do with religion nothing to do with politics just a mentally ill boy who had access to firearms.  
 
James Homes the white 28yr old man who shot and killed 12 people in a theatre in colorado pleaded not guilty to the killings by reason of insanity again mental health issues.  
 
Seung-Hui Cho 23yr old Korean man who killed 32 people and injured 17 at Virginia Tech also mental health issues.  
 
I could continue with several more mass shootings (columbine, charles whitman texas tower murders.the list goes on)  
 
The common factor in every single case off mass murder in the United states is GUNS and on a side note but not my main point here, this is another massive discussion but mental health is a huge issue.  
 
I don't suggest an outright ban on guns in the United States but there needs to be tighter, stricter gun laws.  
 
In canada we have mental health problems, we have terrorists living in our communities but we do not have the gun related death statistics that America does because we have much tighter gun laws.  
 
Yes if a terrorist wants to kill a group of people he/she could just strap on a bomb and walk into a crowded place and blow themselves up or use some kind of explosive device that is left in a bag or whatever but with stricter gun laws we will start to help prevent so many gun related issues. Not selling Automatic Military style rifles that are capable of discharging several rounds in quick succession and magazines capable of holding large numbers of ammunition which hold no other purpose than to cause mass devastation.  
 
I'm not professing to have the answers to this situation and i don't think for one minute that its just an easy case of saying oh ok lets tighten out gun laws and thats it problem solved because I'm sure its not as simple as that but I really do think its time for some huge changes in gun law in the United States and again while i don't think its going to completely fix issues I think it would be a great place to start.

Give my two cents worth since we're talking guns and not the real issue which is "home grown" terrorism.  
With guns, the US has gone too far down the path of "everyone needs a gun to make America safer", mostly fuelled by the NRA.  
What route should the government take "immediately"? I think that the last 8 yesrs has shown that the President is powerless to pass bills that would reduce the number of firearms in that country, again the NRA is championing that effort. The will of the nation isn't there yet, but one would think that level headed, logical inviduals realize that some restrictions must be implemented. A small step in the right direction would be to at least have those on the "no fly" list banned from obtaining a gun legally. This would be a small step and probably wouldn't make a difference at all, but it's still a bill that should be put forward. For whatever reason, the NRA would certainly oppose it and the bill would probably die. As for those with mental illness. Well, the past has proven that they can still obtain a gun from the familly, pawn shop or wherever. In addition, banning individuals with "mental health" issues from purchasing or possessing a firearm stops most individuals (i would think) from seeking treatment as they want to keep the 2nd amendment rights. There are no easy answers to the problem that the NRA has created. The problem is even exasperated as most states have passed laws recently to loosen open carry and gun ownership. Guns in the US is out of control and there's really no easy solution at this point.

Criminals will always get their hands on guns, take paris for example where almost no one has a gun. These cowards attack schools and other places where they know there won't be any guns, you don't hear of any of these terrorists going into a bar in wyoming and shooting it up do you? If they tried it there'd be a dozen guys shooting back at him.

Lots of people stating that gun legislation is the way to go but honestly to stop gun violence the only way would be to round up all the guns everywhere and destroy them. Criminals will always get there hands on a weapon if they want it regardless of legislation. In Canada we don't have a lot of gun related crimes but we definitely do have some. How many of them are legally owned and registered? I have no idea. I'm sure some are but I am positive most are not.

It'd be interesting to see how different the conversation would be if it were a Christian who pledged allegiance to the Westboro baptist church that did this. Probably be a lot less talk about the tools used and way more about the motivations behind the murderer. Bigotry is alive and well in our modern society, but most people who'll comment won't even be aware of theirs.  
 
If you are a homosexual, most people will only care if you are attacked when it's done by an acceptable target, like with the recent houstons assault. Otherwise all you're gettin is candles, a Beatles song and a lot of hot air about gun control and 'bullies' from John Oliver fans. That's what most of the beleaguered LGBT community is going to take away from this.

like most drugs, cocaine and the like, are still available to the masses who seek them out. I don't do drugs so, no, they are not in my possession. I can't get high and overdose and kill myself....because I don't break the law. BUT, if I wanted drugs, I, as a potential criminal, could find them all day long. bottom line is criminals will still obtain whatever they need to, to commit their crimes.

I've read every one of your posts, and while it is plainly obvious that you are against any ban in owning firearms, you obviously don't know what's happening in the States with regards to firearms laws and political interference. I'm not going to go into that here, because that is not the topic of this thread.  
 
What I am going to say is that it is very telling that you take the time to defend the "right" for anyone to own firearms, but spend [i]not one second to express any kind of sorrow for the 50 dead and 50+ injured in Orlando.[/i]  
 
You might be a responsible gun owner, but when you come out of the gate defending firearms using tired platitudes and neglect to take the time to acknowledge the harm that has been done to precipitate this discussion, you come across as nothing more than a gun nut.  
 
As for me, like I said to some friends yesterday, "the saddest part about today's mass shooting in the US is that I have to use the word, '[i]today's[/i]'".

But I think mass media is inflating the stories and making it much more attractive to would be terrorists in their efforts.  
 
The 24/7 media attention IMO, makes terror incidents that much more enticing to people who have extremist beliefs. Some of these people think they will be martyrs the more people they kill, and they know that their like minded people will revere them on the news as their face will be everywhere.  
 
What really bugged me, (though I see most of them have re worded their headlines), is the first few hours outlets like CBC and CTV called it " a gay nightclub shooting". I found that to be vey offensive, especially considering there are so many people in the US that are very anti LGBT. I did not feel that was an empathetic way to get the headline out there.  
 
These people were PEOPLE first, humans should have the same empathy for any victims of such a crime - regardless of shade, creed or species. I agree the facts need to be out there, but it was as if media was trying to ignite something else at the same time.  
 
My heart goes out to all the victims, and I hope this is the end of such attacks. We say it each time, please let there not be another....maybe this time?

JR, it may appear that I'm a gun nut, and while I do have a passion for them, it's for the safe use and ownership of them. It aggravates me a bit when people are very dead set against them because of the way they look. These people are very uneducated about guns, and accessories for them, and I can tell this by what they say, and their responses. Some will agree with me, some will disagree, it is my opinion on the subject.  
 
Part of the reason that I get upset about these topics is for the simple reason that people immediately jump to want to ban guns/ more restrictions. (I guess it's different to from how we are here to how they are in the US) why don't these people say anything about cars when drunks use them as weapons when they drive? It goes for all my examples listed above. It all boils down to the fact it's easier to blame guns because people are scared of them.  
 
Yes, what happened in that nightclub was a terrible event. Most of the time I don't come out and say "thoughts and prayers" like every single person out there does, it's not the way I handle these situations. I do feel bad for those involved, but blame the person, not the tools used.  
 
As said above this wasn't an attack on LGBT community, it was an attack against people. It's down right disgusting. After reading some news headlines from the US, I've read that this **** of a person claimed allegiance to ISIS and that whole ****ed up religion. Once again those extremists are the cause of more pain and suffering for nothing. They are the issue, not guns. Blame ISIS, blame extreme Islamic views. That is what needs to be legislated and banned.

Take a look at this:  
http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-per-100000/  
 
It shows the number of gun related deaths by state. Wyoming is already one of the leaders. I don't think having more guns results in more safety.  
 
Farmer Mike: for what main purpose was the AR15 developed ?  
 
The insanity needs to stop. Mass shootings like Orlando are a cancer on society.

FarmerMike said "JR, it may appear that I'm a gun nut, and while I do have a passion for them, it's for the safe use and ownership of them. It aggravates me a bit when people are very dead set against them because of the way they look. These people are very uneducated about guns, and accessories for them, and I can tell this by what they say, and their responses. Some will agree with me, some will disagree, it is my opinion on the subject.     Part of the reason that I get upset about these topics is for the simple reason that people immediately jump to want to ban guns/ more restrictions. (I guess it's different to from how we are here to how they are in the US) why don't these people say anything about cars when drunks use them as weapons when they drive? It goes for all my examples listed above. It all boils down to the fact it's easier to blame guns because people are scared of them.     Yes, what happened in that nightclub was a terrible event. Most of the time I don't come out and say "thoughts and prayers" like every single person out there does, it's not the way I handle these situations. I do feel bad for those involved, but blame the person, not the tools used.     As said above this wasn't an attack on LGBT community, it was an attack against people. It's down right disgusting. After reading some news headlines from the US, I've read that this **** of a person claimed allegiance to ISIS and that whole ****ed up religion. Once again those extremists are the cause of more pain and suffering for nothing. They are the issue, not guns. Blame ISIS, blame extreme Islamic views. That is what needs to be legislated and banned. "

I think our gun views would probably not be in tune if I were to discuss gunnrights with you. However, I wholeheartedly agree with you that the Orlando tragedy is not about guns, it's about homegrown radical Islamists and yes they are living among us. The CIA and FBI are not concerned about guns in America as much as Islamic terrorist living and working among the population. This thread, for whatever reason is focusing on guns being the problem with this latest incident. However, it is not! If protests are set up against atrocities such as the Orlando attack it should not be in the form of gun control. The marches should be about standing up for our freedoms against the radicals that live among us and worldwide. Hopefully, the Imams and clerics would join in such a march, although I would doubt it. Guns aren't the issue here, it's the jihadists that are the problem!

Standard standard h8tr, the AR 15 was first designed as a small arms weapon for the US military. Since its introduction in the mid 50's, it has a variety of versions created for multiple tasks.  
 
The features of the AR15, which i:nclude its light weight and precise accuracy makes it a great gun of choice for sports shooters. It is no different then any other semi automatic gun on the market that is currently available for hunters.  
 
Did you know, that the only reason that the AR15 is a restricted gun and not a non restricted (here in Canada) is that it CAN be modified to fire fully automatically. But, since owning an automatic gun is illegal, getting caught with one will land you a very long sentence in jail. So, since it is a semi automatic gun, there is no difference between any other semi automatic in the market....just the looks.  
 
Also, as if your not aware, the AR in the name AR15 does not stand for assault rifle. Since here in Canada, we are restricted to a 5 round magazine, owning an AR15 does not come close to making it an assault rifle. It does not have a large magazine capacity and it is not used for military purposes. Therefore, here in Canada, as legal gun owners, there is no such thing as assault rifles. (In the US, different story)

The vast majority of "terroristic" incidents in the states (mass shooting, bombings what have you) were committed by white, non-muslims.  
 
Prior to 9/11 the most devastating attack on American soil was when Tim McVey blew up the building in Oklahoma.  
 
The problem is not Islam. In fact most of the people responsible would have identified as Christian. The problem is not Muslims with guns.  
 
To the best of my knowledge none of the people who have committed mass shootings had a criminal record or would have failed a background check. They only became criminals when they committed these acts. The problem is not criminals with guns.  
 
The problem is primarily guns and secondarily, in the states, a lack of accessible affordable mental health care.  
 
You have a country with a history of violence (how many wars in it's 240 year existence?) and fiercely independent "don't tread on me" attitude and a profusion of guns. Big guns. Big guns with lots of big bullets.  
 
Focus on the real problems instead of red-herrings like religion and criminal background.

Your last line "Focus on the real problems instead of red-herrings like religion and criminal background"  
 
If you don't think for a second that this shooting was religion based, you haven't read much into it. This shooter allied himself with ISIS, their new leader and religion. Is it not true that in Muslim religion, it is wrong to be LGBT? Does it not say they are doing them a favour by killing those that are LBGT? If that is not religious reasons, I don't know what is.  
 
You can call this a hate crime if you will, it was driven by religion. And if you want to say mental health, then likely "God told him to do it" or "he heard voices in his head" both of which point back to religion.  
 
I'm sorry, I just can't agree with you.  
 
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I think you're getting your stuff in a knot over nothing man.  
 
Sure, this one incident definitely has a religious component. So does the mass shooting at the camp in Norway that killed 70 or 80 people. Just that one was Christian.  
 
Sure, Islam has prohibitions against homosexuality. So does Christianity. My point is not that this religion is good and that one bad. My point is that Islam has not been responsible for in any way, shape or form, for the VAST majority of mass shootings and domestic terrorist incidents in the states.  
 
To claim otherwise is to willfully ignore the readily available facts. In 2015 there were 372 mass shootings (defined as 4 or more casualties in one event) in the US resulting in an average of 6 people killed/wounded per incident. If even a quarter of those were motivated by the hateful Muslims don't you think there'd have been a much louder hue and cry?  
 
While I don't think what you said was a hate crime I also don't think you really care much about LGBQ people either. I think you saw a chance to defend guns and attack Muslims and you took it. Of course this is just my opinion.  
 
BTW the difference between his "scary looking gun" and your "scary looking .22" is that his fires 5.56mm rounds.  
 
I don't think I need to tell an expert such as yourself about the difference in stopping power and penetrative force between the two.  
 
You're throwing up one strawman in order to defend your hobby and another in order to indulge your bias.