Discussions

Abracadabra said that a new board was needed. Abracadabra has some concerns and has some ideas. Why not put her/his name forward to help others with similar concerns ?  
 
Edited by standard standard h8r, 2018-02-11 20:07:15

standard standard h8r said "Abracadabra said that a new board was needed. Abracadabra has some concerns and has some ideas. Why not put her/his name forward to help others with similar concerns ?     Edited by standard standard h8r, 2018-02-11 20:07:15"

is a parent who has a child who needs extra help. She or he is frustrated.  
 
So no one should ever criticize an MLA or MP unless they're willing to run?  
 
Maybe this person will run. But to dismiss a parent's concerns the way you did is arrogant.

Our son just started university and in his opinion, high school, especially the last two years were a huge waste of time. The high school did not in any way prepare them for university. Says after grade 10 should have went directly to university as the last two years was a waste. Has commented many times that university is so much better, they don’t baby you and make you responsible to learn. Money not well spent in high schools from the mouth of a recent graduate.

Brandon School Division invites the public to attend our 2018-2019 Budget Consultation, scheduled for:  
 
Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 7:00 PM  
at Green Acres School, 335 Queens Avenue East.  
 
Should you require any disability accommodations or an interpreter for this event, please contact our office:  
Brandon School Division - Office of Communications  
Phone: 204-729-0388 Email: info@bsd.ca  
 
For more detailed information regarding our budget process, please visit our website: www.bsd.ca

Alrighty then said "Our son just started university and in his opinion, high school, especially the last two years were a huge waste of time. The high school did not in any way prepare them for university. Says after grade 10 should have went directly to university as the last two years was a waste. Has commented many times that university is so much better, they don’t baby you and make you responsible to learn. Money not well spent in high schools from the mouth of a recent graduate. "

Considering the high schools all have excellent programs available to grade 11 and 12 students with either the AP courses or IB courses that are specifically meant to provide a real academic challenge. I am guessing if your child had wanted a challenge then he could have had many great opportunities for one. But instead, I am guessing, he took the easy route through high school with minimal easy courses and didn't care at that time in his life. The IB and AP courses are university-level courses that he could have taken for free and got university credits for completing them. Life is what you make of it and full of lots of choices!

Johnbisonbear said "is whatever they want. Finally we have a government who is thinking of the taxpayer's financial hardships. "

looking after the financial end is good but we need the schools to graduate kids that can read and understand math . the problem is not completely at the board level but i think the board should do more to advocate better education, ie proven programs not things dreamed up by high price experts that are not adequatly proven to work . we also hear how the newcomers are causing the problem with the schools , i believe that the newcomers are generally more motivated than most kids brought up in canada

mackenzie5 said "    Johnbisonbear said "is whatever they want. Finally we have a government who is thinking of the taxpayer's financial hardships. " looking after the financial end is good but we need the schools to graduate kids that can read and understand math . the problem is not completely at the board level but i think the board should do more to advocate better education, ie proven programs not things dreamed up by high price experts that are not adequatly proven to work . we also hear how the newcomers are causing the problem with the schools , i believe that the newcomers are generally more motivated than most kids brought up in canada "

been in school, lol but I believe that things need to be improved for the children. Time to turn off the computers and do some real thinking!

It was about 15 or so years ago, when mine were still in school...  
 
BSD insisted that they needed more from our community because enrollment was down and revenue from provincial funding - based on student enrollment numbers - was reduced.  
 
Two years later BSD complained that that they needed more from the community because enrollment was up and the increased enrollment required increased funding.  
 
Since then, well, I've been skeptical of BSD's claimed funding necessities.  
 
I've come to believe that the school board system of education funding in this province merely benefits the education community in their effort to ensure a constant and consistent stream of revenue for the benefit of educators and educational bureaucrats - rather than for the benefit of those they purportedly serve, students and their parents.

Just to start off I am not a hater of teachers, administrators, trustees, etc. I am a parent who has had a child go through the system. Now I am Joe taxpayer. I attended tonight’s meeting which was a very small turnout. I do agree weather will play a part of it. With such low turnout I wonder if people have given up. I am sure the trustees loved the low turnout tonight because they can assume we don’t care what they do. I think the bigger issue is there is no accountability to what they do so why bother. If the school gym was full of upset taxpayers wanting a pencil sharpened on the budget the attitude could still remain the same because there is nothing we can do about it. It is obvious they don’t want to keep the lowest cost option in mind. When asked to keep at the 2% increase cap there was no enthusiasm in working towards that goal. Instead of looking at budgets and numbers for a new school the attitude is “just get it first” and to me that is asking for an open chequebook. It was made clear in the answers they are pro school division without a limit.  
I quoted these numbers and was met with just the saying - costs go up. I am sorry but that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Twenty years ago we had a budget of $39 million for 7933 students. Enrollment has risen only 7.5% till now with a budgets increased to $102 million. That is a 162% increase over 20 years for 7.5% rise in students. People use the explosion of immigrants as just cause. There has only been a rise in the last 6 years of a 12% student increase. 1997 to 2011 spending has gone up 77% or 5.5% each year.  
2011 to 2017 spending has gone up 48% or 8.0% each year. Where will this put us with a new school and staffing for that? These are crazy high numbers that if this was a business there would be no way this would fly. Budgets from 2011 and enrollment was 7609 with $69 million in expenses. 2017 enrollment is 8530 with $102 million in expenses, or an increase of 51%. Student enrollment increased 12% during the same period. Full-time staff increased 157 positions or 15% or a full time position per 6 student increase. Division administration increased 71% over last 6 years. Common people and trustees!!!!! These numbers are not sustainable to us taxpayers. I love the assessment value of your home examples. I refuse to better my home to try and keep my taxes down. I feel penalized for improving my home to have to pay higher taxes for it?  
The division loves to play comparisons against other Manitoba divisions. Sorry I am not stupid to play those ways. I mentioned we are second highest in provincial spending. Saskatchewan spends the most. When asked how we compared to other provinces the answer was “we are not where we would like to be.” Really? So we toss money to a system that isn’t working and we need to keep upping the $$.  
 
It was asked by another about program costing. The trustees couldn’t give an answer of what programs cost. I wanted to know the costing on (I apologize if offending anyone by calling it “Hugs and Kisses” programs). Example of this is “Increase the level of student interest and motivation in learning at and beyond……(school name)”. Action taken: Student initiated clusters such as Art, dance, coding, math, Spanish, Mindcraft, yoga, cartooning, music, cup stacking, Pokemon, etc. Mindcraft/Pokemon/Cup Stacking? Really is there value in today’s society that students learn these special skills? Results: 60% of students interested and motivated their learning (48% in 7-8, 71% in 4-6). I wonder how many teachers got sent to some learning conference, to come back and teach other teachers this technique only to have a 60% student outcome. That is no way value for my dollar. Another school had Math Continuum at 63-65% at levels at or above grade. Doesn’t seem too positive for me to continue with that to know there needs to be some continuous improvement. Right down to a percent that can feel safe and loved, or something like that while at school. I mentioned the 3,100 sub days per month (31,000 per school year) and asked what that is costing as it is both days booked for educational purposes and the rest same day call ins. I got a response they are aware of it. Instead of being aware of it, control it! I have called the High Schools asking if they would recommend any students for potential job opportunities with my company and they will not refer any. What kind of system is that setting students up for and where is the accountability for the student to do timely work and show up on time every day?  
 
The end is we need accountability and results for our high taxed dollars. I would rather the province take over the board and just give one budget amount for the division and the schools have to start living within their means.

I thank you for taking the time to attend last night's meeting, Fishin Guy. I personally wish that more members of the public would take the opportunity to attend these annual budget forums to ask us questions and share their opinions on our budgets.  
 
I’m sorry you felt so frustrated by our budget forum. Speaking as an individual trustee, there are times when being “on this inside” can be equally frustrating, and there have certainly been times over the last seven years where I’ve voiced my own displeasure at our budget positions.  
 
As was pointed out at the forum, we are well under the 2% increase cap on our special requirement that has been imposed by the Minister of Education. In fact, our preliminary scenarios have us coming in at 0.09% to 0.88%.  
 
But that being said, our costs are continuing to go up. There’s no dancing around that, and we’re not alone there. It’s easy to find bumps in specific budget areas from year to year or even over a number of years, but the fact is we’re experiencing it all over. The breakdown of where we spent money now (classrooms vs administration vs transportation, etc) is very comparable to where we were spending it 20 years ago, but there’s more of it being spent, and it’s hard to place the blame on one single factor. I wish we could – it would make it an easier problem to solve. Aside from regular inflationary pressures, some of the major drivers are trends towards smaller class sizes and better educated teachers (who qualify for higher salaries). And there are numerous small factors that all add up, such as providing some services that used to be delivered through health service providers, and transporting a greater proportion of pupils.  
 
And whether it’s the division or the province that’s holding the ultimate purse strings seems to make little difference. The Fraser Institute published a report that looked at education spending across Canada: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/education-spending-and-public-student-enrolment-in-canada-2017.pdf You can see that the trends from 2005/06 to 2014/15 were relatively comparable across provinces with five provinces increasing per-student spending at a faster rate than here in Manitoba. And I could be wrong (don’t have time to double-check this morning), but I believe all of those five provinces have provincial control of board spending limits.  
 
If folks want to tightly rein in or even reduce spending in the Brandon School Division, I personally believe that the upcoming school board elections next fall provide a more immediate opportunity to do so than calling for provincial control over the division budget. If people are willing to put their name forward as candidates with a promise to rein in spending, the public would have the opportunity to select a new board with a strong mandate to do just that.  
 
I won’t get in to discussion of individual programs. Not because programs shouldn’t be scrutinized - that’s why we do program evaluations. Generally our BSD results on provincial testing show that our results are, on average, comparable to provincial results, with some areas that fall below average but many where we are ahead of the curve. But that’s a discussion for another day and the focus over the next few weeks needs to be this budget that is before us.  
 
Again, these are some of my personal thoughts on this matter. I'm not speaking on behalf of the Board of Trustees, but simply as an individual board member.

Thanks for your response. It is very easy to skew numbers to make them look beautiful. At the end of the day when the vote is in for the budget nobody wants to see an increase in school division taxes over 2%. Yes there is election time to make a difference but if I read things correctly if working already you need to take a leave of absence for around $21 grand in pay. Sorry, maybe part time work would work at that but I am not willing to lose that much income.  
 
Honestly I don''t care what other people are doing at what cost. I run a business and I don''t compare my success to other businesses in the area. The increased spending at the rates I posted are not sustainable at all. I am pro government take over of boards and let them set a budget and the division work with what they get. I would love a wish list at work and tell my customers I am raising costs to get my wishes.....too bad they would no longer be around to see that happen. Boards we have to accept what we get as we can''t do nothing about it anyway.  
It just pisses me off that as a business manager I know what all my costs are, when we do lean events, group meetings, etc. I know how much it all costs and what outcomes I am looking for. The board showed none of that last night.  
 
Kevan, maybe you can find this out.  
 
How much does 31,000 sub days cost the division each year.  
 
How much does it cost for faculty to attend, implement, and monitor courses such as the student initiated clusters where they can play cup stacking, Minecraft, etc. as motivation to learn.  
These experiments are over and above core teaching of basic math, english, etc. courses.  
 
Edited by Fishin Guy, 2018-02-16 09:33:38

Fishin' Guy: I demand answers!  
Kevan: Here ya go.  
Fishin' Guy: I don't want your answers!

Fishin Guy, I''ll try to respond as best I can to your most recent post. Again, this is me speaking with my own opinions as an individual trustee and not on behalf of the board.  
 
The time commitment to being a trustee should not require a leave of absence. The trustees schedule their own meetings, and my experience has been that the board can work around individual schedules. I find I choose to use about 1-2 weeks of vacation time from my work each year to attend school-related events that occur during regular work hours, but that is a choice not an obligation. Back in 2013-14 I spent 19 months managing an office in Beausejour, working 4 days each week there, and the board was able to work with my schedule (though I wouldn''t want to go through that period again).  
 
Regarding your questions, I''m sorry but I can''t personally provide the level of answers you''re looking for, at least not on any sort of short turnaround. For example, there are many reasons for substitutes - sick days, professional development, personal leave, the birth of a teacher''s child, etc, so those costs will be spread across numerous budget lines, and I simply don''t have personal access to that level of data.  
 
I''m not saying you shouldn''t be asking the questions, just wanted to explain why I''m not responding with data. Whenever I hear questions from the public, I try to find out answers, but sometimes it takes a while or the data simply isn''t there in the case of a very specific request.  
 
Edited by Kevan Sumner, 2018-02-16 10:48:50

Pots And Owls said "Fishin' Guy: I demand answers!   Kevan: Here ya go.   Fishin' Guy: I don't want your answers! "

Well for the life of me I am trying to understand the methodology the school division is trying to achieve with all these different departments, committees, groups all doing different things at different schools with PD days and such. One school students self motivate with Mindcraft and cup stacking. Another is working to have students have a sense of belonging at the school. We do lean events all the time over all our facilities and we all do the same thing. Then we brainstorm and take what works from each division and build a program that everyone in the end excels at. I don't see the same goals at more than one school. To outright tell me that costs go up but cannot explain to me what the costs are and why they need to go up doesn't make sense. How do they make a budget if they don't know what it costs for anything? Sure sub days i:nclude other things. Ok. 1200 same day call ins are recorded on average. I would say those are sick days. So 1900 subs per month are booked ahead of time. When dealing with a 102 million dollar budget for 1500 staff.....we are not playing with nickels and dimes. I would want to know where my dollars are going. That isn't too much to ask.

is very interesting discussion. Thanks to fishin guy for educating me on things I didn't know. I know I haven't been paying close enough attention. I applaud FG for doing his civic duty and asking difficult questions.  
 
I have a question. Are teachers expected to be away from their students at the request of the division to attend meetings, or PD, as they are professionally called? If so, how many days are divisional senior administrators expecting teachers to miss each year because of meetings? Multiply this by all the teachers I the division, and the costs are high.  
 
Teachers have a very difficult job, but anyone should be allowed to ask questions about the system without having a label attached. Thank you FG for your hard work in digging into the fine details.

Brandon School Division said "Brandon School Division invites the public to attend our 2018-2019 Budget Consultation, scheduled for:     Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 7:00 PM   at Green Acres School, 335 Queens Avenue East.     Should you require any disability accommodations or an interpreter for this event, please contact our office:   Brandon School Division - Office of Communications   Phone: 204-729-0388 Email: info@bsd.ca     For more detailed information regarding our budget process, please visit our website: www.bsd.ca "

For anyone interested that has Westman Cable and wants to catch the Brandon School Division Budget Meeting that was held on February 15th, it is airing right now on Channel 12.

Hello EBrandon Community  
All of our Board meetings are open to the public and streamed live on our website. Our meetings, including budget deliberations & consultations are also archived on our website at the link below.  
 
https://www.bsd.ca/board/meetings/Pages/board-meeting-video-archives.aspx  
 
If you have a question for our Board or would like to have a letter included on the agenda of a Board meeting, please address it to the Chairperson of the Board and submit to: sangster.bernadene@bsd.ca