Discussions

I'm not sure if there is a free copy online, Sorbet, but I think you might enjoy reading Roger Scruton's ideas on education. A few of the things you've said remind me of his writings. If you can find it, Schools and Schooling" is an interesting article by him. Basically anything by him is pretty interesting. I don't agree with all of it, but he had some intense ideas.

crake88 said "I have many teachers in my family, as well as most of my best friends who are teachers. I took a four year BA degree at BU and the two year after-degree in education. I then took my masters and specialized in special education. I am not looking to fight with you, and you make a lot of valid points that I agree with. There are definitely a lot of useless PDs. There was one a few years ago where attendees learned to make bread - a valuable skill for any classroom teacher (sarcasm). There are ones that are useful to teachers, though. This is why I prefer days like SAGE because the teachers can choose to go to sessions that will be beneficial for them. You've quoted The Quill's article many times. While I agree that major changes need to happen in this province in regards to Education, I would suggest to you to find a more valid article to show this. The Quil is basically a joke. It's written by students and is a paper that is completely biased without substance. Students even know that nothing in the paper is to be taken seriously. An academic article that is written by a fully educated member of society who actually has had a connection to the education system would be a better source. You, as someone who has been a teacher, is a more valuable resource than the Quil. "

know all about The Quill. The comments from the university math professors cited in the article should be taken seriously though.  
 
I believe the provincial government has slowly and insidiously damaged public education in this province.  
 
Did you read this?  
 
https://www.cdhowe.org/pdf/commentary_427.pdf

crake88 said "I'm not sure if there is a free copy online, Sorbet, but I think you might enjoy reading Roger Scruton's ideas on education. A few of the things you've said remind me of his writings. If you can find it, Schools and Schooling" is an interesting article by him. Basically anything by him is pretty interesting. I don't agree with all of it, but he had some intense ideas. "

for the suggestion. I will look to read Scruton's thoughts.  
 
Maybe he agrees with John Taylor Gatto. I found him to be an interesting character, as an award winning former public school teacher. His book Weapons of Mass Instruction was an interesting read.  
 
He also wrote The Underground History of Public Education. The entire book can be found on the link I provide below. 400 odd pages though. Interesting nonetheless. Maybe all Ed. students should read it to stimulate healthy debate.  
 
https://archive.org/stream/JohnTaylorGattoTheUndergroundHistoryOfAmericanEducationBook/John%20Taylor%20Gatto%20-%20The%20Underground%20History%20of%20American%20Education%20Book_djvu.txt

September said "I rarely comment on this website at all. As a teacher, I hardly ever open these types of threads (regarding the education system or schools, or teachers specifically) because instead of taking constructive criticism from it or bits of encouragement – I’m just left with a feeling of being unappreciated and misunderstood. It’s difficult to stand back and stay quiet with this one though.     Sorbet, as a teacher myself, I am so disappointed by your comments. I have a lot I could comment and say, but I feel as if it would mostly be a moot point – but let me leave you with a few thoughts.     I completed a Bachelor of Arts prior to obtaining my Bachelor of Education. Please know that I was required to take math and science courses during my BA. I feel that this was an adequate amount. I’m just wondering what more people want from teachers? My strengths lie in the humanities, so that is what I chose to study for my 3 years during my BA. I obviously have knowledge of math and science, as I studied them during K-12 and took some courses in university. This is NOT counting methods courses that I took in the Faculty of Education. What more would you like from teachers? Ideally, yes, teachers would be geniuses in ALL subject areas that they teach, but this is impossible to achieve. What do we do in university? We learn about topics and concepts in which we are unfamiliar of, learn more about them, and present our new-found knowledge. I’ll admit I have not been perfectly familiar with every single curriculum outcome I have been required to teach. However, I am confident that my education (more specifically my post-secondary education) has given me the ability to thoroughly learn a topic and concept, and be able to present my knowledge (or in my case, be able to teach it to my students).     You suggested that teachers should take their masters in the “most important” domains in school (Math, Science, ELA), therefore implying that educating themselves in Guidance Counselling or Special Education is of lesser value. I couldn’t disagree with you more. As someone who holds a BA (with an English major), in a perfect world, I would absolutely LOVE to take my Masters in English. In fact, it would be my first choice. I would love to study literature more in-depth. But the reality is that in my profession, if I took my Masters in English, it would be far more beneficial for me than my students. My elementary-aged students would not benefit in the slightest if I furthered my education in English. So as much as I personally would enjoy it, I cannot justify it given my profession.     Before you knock teachers educating themselves in counselling or Special Ed., please consider this - a student who is harming themselves or is suicidal is not going to benefit from going to a math class that is taught by a teacher who has a more comprehensive education in math. Take a child who has special needs and put them in a Science class taught by someone with a Masters in Science – I’m sure this will ensure they have an experience in school that will set them up for complete success all-around. I agree, in some cases, teachers continuing their education in their respective subject areas may be beneficial. Probably not in most cases.     I am very interested in furthering my education – but in choosing what I will study – I will once again put my students needs before my wants. My students need someone who is able to effectively listen to them, and help solve and cope with problems they may be encountering. My students need someone who is able to plan units and lessons that accommodate ALL of their learning needs. My students do not need someone who has studied Chaucer, Shakespeare, and contemporary literature to no end (as much as I would enjoy that).     I do not claim that I am a perfect teacher, or that all teachers are perfect. I just ask that you consider some of the people you generalize when you speak about us. I put in a great deal of effort to make sure my students get the very most from me. My workday, on paper, starts at 8:45 and ends at 3:30. My workday, in reality, starts at about 7 am, and there are days that I look at my classroom clock and see 11pm. I don’t complain, I rarely mention the extra hours to anyone but my family, who obviously notice my absence. I put in extra time because I know that is part of the job if I want to my job as WELL as I can, and I am happy to do it. I have 15 kiddos with growing minds coming into my classroom every day, and I feel deeply responsible for them. I’ll happily accommodate them in whatever ways I can. I’m happy to help my students learn, and get them excited about learning. I’m excited to spend my days with them and learn FROM them.     I am very well aware that although I have my students for a very short period of their lives, I am helping them carve part of their path to their future. I, and the majority of the teachers I have had the privilege to study or work alongside, take this extremely seriously. We are aware that we may have doctors, scientists, journalists, mechanics, astronauts, etc., in our classrooms. We are aware that we could have a student who may hold the cure to cancer one day, who may be the next great world leader. We are aware that each and every day, parents trust us with their child’s education and also their well-being. We are aware that some of our students spend more time with us, and in our classrooms than they spend at home with their families. We have a genuine vested interest in our students’ lives. I admit I don’t do my job perfectly, but I hope that the effort I put in is in some way recognized, and the care that I have for each one of my students and their need is appreciated.           Edited by SeptemberGirl, 2015-09-15 22:47:15"

find a lot of disappointment with your post.  
 
I'm disappointed that yo feel that children could not benefit from being taught by someone with a passion for literature. Teaching literature properly and teaching students to make interesting connections with stories they read is vital for the development of the mind. True, thought provoking literature is a powerful tool. I would recommend all teachers read a book called "The Story Killers". Although this book is American, it details what makes an English class boring or exciting. I think kids need to start analyzing and loving decent literature at a young age.  
 
 
http://www.amazon.ca/The-Story-Killers-Common-Sense-Against-Common/dp/1493623370  
 
Math is another important subject that needs to be taught properly, by teachers who understand the subject. We have a math crisis in this province whether people want to admit it or not. The problem starts with the ministry and the terrible curriculum they developed. Did you know that today's math standards, are on average, 2 years behind what they were in 1980? I guess that's what they call 21st Century Progression.  
 
I still work with numerous students directly and indirectly. They show me what they do in school. They need plenty of help and that is what I do. Thee are not kids with special needs. I guess those who hate me here should be thankful I don't post pictures of what I see passing for math and English in schools. I wouldn't do that here, but my goodness, to make it seem like everything is "awesome" is ridiculous.  
 
 
Edited by Sorbet, 2015-09-17 07:03:40

I find it interesting when these discussions come up that teachers get defensive and say they work after hours, are expected to attend conferences, complete course and take part in extra curricular activities.  
 
I work for a large publicly traded corporation and everyone in my organization is expected to take ongoing courses, attend after hours meetings, take part in community events, volunteer and so on. Is is part of the job you signed up for !  
 
This happens in many different industries but it seems like it's always the teachers that have to point it out!  

Sorbet said "    crake88 said "I'm not sure if there is a free copy online, Sorbet, but I think you might enjoy reading Roger Scruton's ideas on education. A few of the things you've said remind me of his writings. If you can find it, Schools and Schooling" is an interesting article by him. Basically anything by him is pretty interesting. I don't agree with all of it, but he had some intense ideas. " for the suggestion. I will look to read Scruton's thoughts.     Maybe he agrees with John Taylor Gatto. I found him to be an interesting character, as an award winning former public school teacher. His book Weapons of Mass Instruction was an interesting read.     He also wrote The Underground History of Public Education. The entire book can be found on the link I provide below. 400 odd pages though. Interesting nonetheless. Maybe all Ed. students should read it to stimulate healthy debate.     https://archive.org/stream/JohnTaylorGattoTheUndergroundHistoryOfAmericanEducationBook/John%20Taylor%20Gatto%20-%20The%20Underground%20History%20of%20American%20Education%20Book_djvu.txt "

John Taylor Gatto. He was very eye-opening. Another good book of his, for those interested is "Dumbing Us Down".  
 
Another author that should be required reading for anyone interested in education is John Holt, and his seminal works "How Children Fail" and "How Children Learn".  
 
It's interesting that when debating public education, most arguments unknowingly assume a faulty premise - that the purpose of public education is to educate, and therefore is passing/failing at that task.  
 
But the history of public education, looked at critically, shows that is not in fact the primary purpose of public education at all. Education is really just a side-effect. The primary purpose is ultimately social conditioning, and at that schools are doing a very, very good job.

These things are pointed out, not because teachers are complaining but generally to defend against the comments that we work from 8:30 to 3:30, get all of our weekends and holidays off and two months off in the summer.  
 
Personally, I think it's a wash - those things have advantages such as having the same schedule as my kids for holidays, being able to be home for supper most nights and attend their activities. Sure, I may spend a couple extra hours every night and on weekends doing correcting and lesson planning, but I am not complaining about it. I don't get paid by the hour and I am not asking to be paid more or to be compensated for that time.  
 
You will notice that teachers'hours and summer holidays also come up in every conversation about education/teachers. That doesn't seem to happen with other professions. We know we aren't the only ones putting in extra hours and returning to our jobs after everyone else goes home. But we are called out on it a lot.  
 
I am mostly interested in the type of conversation brought up in the last couple of posts - how can we do better? What is working here, and what else can we try?  
 
Edited by Starhc, 2015-09-17 09:09:23

every comment but I know many teachers and they earn every dollar they make. Many go above and beyond what they have to and many deal with a lot of student issues that are not academic as well.  
Thank a teacher!

Maybe the surplus could be spent on more staff - psychologists, speech therapists, counsellors, etc. Our youth today are battling many problems that will affect their scores in these standardized tests. When primary kids have to spend 2 years on a waiting list for a psychologist to be diagnosed with learning disabilities... 2 years of getting further behind and becoming depressed because they think they are stupid... That's a problem. My child's teachers have been great and have to deal with a lot of different problems on a daily basis. Last year my kid's class had 4 kids with ADHD in it that I knew of. I can't handle 1 kid with ADHD most of the time and she had 4 everyday! Not every child is easy to teach. The resources need to be there to assist the teachers and we as parents need to know what those resources are. Not every situation is like mine but the resources are not offered up without asking and a long wait once you know what you need. If you don't blend into the norm in the bsd, you get left behind and lost pretty quickly. That is the main issue with our school board. Fix that and the bottom performing kids will be a lot better off.  
 
I don't believe teaching is easy. I think they earn their pay. My child's teacher last year made a life changing improvement in my kid. If you have a "normal" child who can learn easily, you may not see what these teachers do to improve our youth's lives. If anything, our struggles with our situation has proved to us just how amazing the profession of teaching is.

Something else we can look at in regards to why education, especially in mathematics, is going downhill, is the type of teachers being hired by the school division.  
 
Let's compare two educations: Someone who gets their BA/BSc (3 year) degree has to write papers, complete labs, and put in a lot of hard work. They are taught at least the basic skills in literature and mathematics, and most specialize in at least one of these areas. Then there is someone who gets a Bachelor of Physical Education (3 year degree). They take maybe one English course. Maybe one or two science courses (many take the course, which is referred to Rocks for Jocks - which many cheat their way through). Instead of writing papers and going to labs they are going to activities courses! Dance, golf, volleyball, soccer... You name it. And they get credit for this which is considered "equal" to an academic course.  
 
Let's fast-forward to after graduation from the B.Ed After-Degree. It's time for everyone to apply for jobs. As much as academic skill matters, guess who's GPA has been pushed ahead by their getting an A+ in Dance? Guess who is going to really add to the school environment by coaching an extra-curricular sport? Guess who gets the job? It's okay that they can't teach math and could care less about the math curriculum, as long as they can coach basketball after school and teach gym!  
 
I would say that of my graduating year at least 80% of teachers with Physical Education have gotten jobs - and that's a low guesstimate. There are people I graduated with who were at the top of their classes while getting their BA/BSc and they still don't have jobs, despite the fact that they would be amazing at teaching and also have more passion about students than many of the Physical Education students.  
 
Our priorities in what school divisions look for in teachers has shifted, which I believe plays a big part in the standard of education students are receiving.

Does that mean there is a shortage of gym teachers? I have no problem with Physical Education degree students snapping up all the jobs for gym teachers - it might take longer for the AD program teachers to get a job if there are fewer openings but at least they will be in their area of expertise and not teaching Phys. Ed.  
 
I would not agree with a school board hiring someone *specifically* to teach HS math and science who doesn't have a solid background in those areas, however I do think it is pretty common to have a phys ed teacher who has one or two other courses that may be math or science.  
 
I hate to bring salary back to the conversation, but is it possible that school boards are picking up these Physical Education program graduates with their 3 year degree because they are very low on the pay scale compared to a Class 5 teacher with a AD Education degree?  
 
I am not arguing, I am just interested in your points because I was under the impression that you needed 5 years of education now to be certified as a teacher here. So this is all news to me and I'd be concerned as well.

No, definitely not a shortage of gym teachers! Quite the opposite. If there is a gym teacher job posted that is for teaching 100% gym, I think these jobs should go to Physical Education teachers! The issue is that most teachers don't get to teach JUST what they want - their job may be 50% gym and 50% mathematics.  
 
Physical Education students have to take the same two year After-degree program that anyone graduating with a BA/BSc degree would. There is no difference in what the division will have to pay either.  
 
There are gym teachers who do excellent jobs and can teach their core subject extremely well, as well as taking on math, science, social studies, etc. I know many teachers, who are not specifically gym teachers who care more about their extra-curricular coaching duties and their time in the gym than their classroom teaching. It's great to have someone who is an enthusiastic coach. It's not beneficial to the students to not have someone who isn't as passionate about the classroom teaching. I just find it frustrating when these jobs are given to the wrong people. To be fair, I don't think this happens a lot in BSD.  
 
Edited by crake88, 2015-09-17 15:18:27

crake88 said "Something else we can look at in regards to why education, especially in mathematics, is going downhill, is the type of teachers being hired by the school division.     Let's compare two educations: Someone who gets their BA/BSc (3 year) degree has to write papers, complete labs, and put in a lot of hard work. They are taught at least the basic skills in literature and mathematics, and most specialize in at least one of these areas. Then there is someone who gets a Bachelor of Physical Education (3 year degree). They take maybe one English course. Maybe one or two science courses (many take the course, which is referred to Rocks for Jocks - which many cheat their way through). Instead of writing papers and going to labs they are going to activities courses! Dance, golf, volleyball, soccer... You name it. And they get credit for this which is considered "equal" to an academic course.     Let's fast-forward to after graduation from the B.Ed After-Degree. It's time for everyone to apply for jobs. As much as academic skill matters, guess who's GPA has been pushed ahead by their getting an A+ in Dance? Guess who is going to really add to the school environment by coaching an extra-curricular sport? Guess who gets the job? It's okay that they can't teach math and could care less about the math curriculum, as long as they can coach basketball after school and teach gym!     I would say that of my graduating year at least 80% of teachers with Physical Education have gotten jobs - and that's a low guesstimate. There are people I graduated with who were at the top of their classes while getting their BA/BSc and they still don't have jobs, despite the fact that they would be amazing at teaching and also have more passion about students than many of the Physical Education students.     Our priorities in what school divisions look for in teachers has shifted, which I believe plays a big part in the standard of education students are receiving. "

make some excellent points.  
 
I will also add that there are many elementary teachers who are not comfortable teaching math.  
 
I have also seen classroom teachers get a pass on shoddy teaching because they coach a sport after school. Schools need teachers to run sports teams and clubs. A principal will not risk upsetting a teacher and calling a teacher out on poor teaching because they fear the teacher will quit their extra-curricular duties leaving a void.  
 
We live in a society, and it's unfortunate IMHO, in which we value sports over education. I will also say that I am a sports fan, and sports are important...but so is decent education.

Sorbet said "    crake88 said "Something else we can look at in regards to why education, especially in mathematics, is going downhill, is the type of teachers being hired by the school division.     Let's compare two educations: Someone who gets their BA/BSc (3 year) degree has to write papers, complete labs, and put in a lot of hard work. They are taught at least the basic skills in literature and mathematics, and most specialize in at least one of these areas. Then there is someone who gets a Bachelor of Physical Education (3 year degree). They take maybe one English course. Maybe one or two science courses (many take the course, which is referred to Rocks for Jocks - which many cheat their way through). Instead of writing papers and going to labs they are going to activities courses! Dance, golf, volleyball, soccer... You name it. And they get credit for this which is considered "equal" to an academic course.     Let's fast-forward to after graduation from the B.Ed After-Degree. It's time for everyone to apply for jobs. As much as academic skill matters, guess who's GPA has been pushed ahead by their getting an A+ in Dance? Guess who is going to really add to the school environment by coaching an extra-curricular sport? Guess who gets the job? It's okay that they can't teach math and could care less about the math curriculum, as long as they can coach basketball after school and teach gym!     I would say that of my graduating year at least 80% of teachers with Physical Education have gotten jobs - and that's a low guesstimate. There are people I graduated with who were at the top of their classes while getting their BA/BSc and they still don't have jobs, despite the fact that they would be amazing at teaching and also have more passion about students than many of the Physical Education students.     Our priorities in what school divisions look for in teachers has shifted, which I believe plays a big part in the standard of education students are receiving. " make some excellent points.     I will also add that there are many elementary teachers who are not comfortable teaching math.     I have also seen classroom teachers get a pass on shoddy teaching because they coach a sport after school. Schools need teachers to run sports teams and clubs. A principal will not risk upsetting a teacher and calling a teacher out on poor teaching because they fear the teacher will quit their extra-curricular duties leaving a void.     We live in a society, and it's unfortunate IMHO, in which we value sports over education. I will also say that I am a sports fan, and sports are important...but so is decent education. "

Have you seen the youth of today? For some of them "forced" physical education is the only excercise they get. It is NOT a priority in schools. It is a necessity. Physical health is as important if not more so than a "decent education". What good is a decent education if you are a potential heart attack victim while still in elementary school! Do not play that card. Childhood obesity is a real problem, more so than you not liking the math & literature curriculum. Do not undermine the importance of being taught a healthy lifestyle!!!

Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    crake88 said "Something else we can look at in regards to why education, especially in mathematics, is going downhill, is the type of teachers being hired by the school division.     Let's compare two educations: Someone who gets their BA/BSc (3 year) degree has to write papers, complete labs, and put in a lot of hard work. They are taught at least the basic skills in literature and mathematics, and most specialize in at least one of these areas. Then there is someone who gets a Bachelor of Physical Education (3 year degree). They take maybe one English course. Maybe one or two science courses (many take the course, which is referred to Rocks for Jocks - which many cheat their way through). Instead of writing papers and going to labs they are going to activities courses! Dance, golf, volleyball, soccer... You name it. And they get credit for this which is considered "equal" to an academic course.     Let's fast-forward to after graduation from the B.Ed After-Degree. It's time for everyone to apply for jobs. As much as academic skill matters, guess who's GPA has been pushed ahead by their getting an A+ in Dance? Guess who is going to really add to the school environment by coaching an extra-curricular sport? Guess who gets the job? It's okay that they can't teach math and could care less about the math curriculum, as long as they can coach basketball after school and teach gym!     I would say that of my graduating year at least 80% of teachers with Physical Education have gotten jobs - and that's a low guesstimate. There are people I graduated with who were at the top of their classes while getting their BA/BSc and they still don't have jobs, despite the fact that they would be amazing at teaching and also have more passion about students than many of the Physical Education students.     Our priorities in what school divisions look for in teachers has shifted, which I believe plays a big part in the standard of education students are receiving. " make some excellent points.     I will also add that there are many elementary teachers who are not comfortable teaching math.     I have also seen classroom teachers get a pass on shoddy teaching because they coach a sport after school. Schools need teachers to run sports teams and clubs. A principal will not risk upsetting a teacher and calling a teacher out on poor teaching because they fear the teacher will quit their extra-curricular duties leaving a void.     We live in a society, and it's unfortunate IMHO, in which we value sports over education. I will also say that I am a sports fan, and sports are important...but so is decent education. " Have you seen the youth of today? For some of them "forced" physical education is the only excercise they get. It is NOT a priority in schools. It is a necessity. Physical health is as important if not more so than a "decent education". What good is a decent education if you are a potential heart attack victim while still in elementary school! Do not play that card. Childhood obesity is a real problem, more so than you not liking the math & literature curriculum. Do not undermine the importance of being taught a healthy lifestyle!!! "

did anyone say physical exercise isn't important. Is childhood obesity an epidemic? I don't think so. Some kids are obese. Many are not.  
 
I would much rather kids get exercise as opposed to staring at a screen. But all the major tech companies have marketed the false fact that kids need a tablet to school districts everywhere. We have a screen addiction problem: that I will say, and it doesn't take long nor need you go far to notice.

Show me a parent who cares and a teacher will show you a child that can learn.  
 
Spark that natural desire to learn that is in every child.

Sorbet said "    Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    crake88 said "Something else we can look at in regards to why education, especially in mathematics, is going downhill, is the type of teachers being hired by the school division.     Let's compare two educations: Someone who gets their BA/BSc (3 year) degree has to write papers, complete labs, and put in a lot of hard work. They are taught at least the basic skills in literature and mathematics, and most specialize in at least one of these areas. Then there is someone who gets a Bachelor of Physical Education (3 year degree). They take maybe one English course. Maybe one or two science courses (many take the course, which is referred to Rocks for Jocks - which many cheat their way through). Instead of writing papers and going to labs they are going to activities courses! Dance, golf, volleyball, soccer... You name it. And they get credit for this which is considered "equal" to an academic course.     Let's fast-forward to after graduation from the B.Ed After-Degree. It's time for everyone to apply for jobs. As much as academic skill matters, guess who's GPA has been pushed ahead by their getting an A+ in Dance? Guess who is going to really add to the school environment by coaching an extra-curricular sport? Guess who gets the job? It's okay that they can't teach math and could care less about the math curriculum, as long as they can coach basketball after school and teach gym!     I would say that of my graduating year at least 80% of teachers with Physical Education have gotten jobs - and that's a low guesstimate. There are people I graduated with who were at the top of their classes while getting their BA/BSc and they still don't have jobs, despite the fact that they would be amazing at teaching and also have more passion about students than many of the Physical Education students.     Our priorities in what school divisions look for in teachers has shifted, which I believe plays a big part in the standard of education students are receiving. " make some excellent points.     I will also add that there are many elementary teachers who are not comfortable teaching math.     I have also seen classroom teachers get a pass on shoddy teaching because they coach a sport after school. Schools need teachers to run sports teams and clubs. A principal will not risk upsetting a teacher and calling a teacher out on poor teaching because they fear the teacher will quit their extra-curricular duties leaving a void.     We live in a society, and it's unfortunate IMHO, in which we value sports over education. I will also say that I am a sports fan, and sports are important...but so is decent education. " Have you seen the youth of today? For some of them "forced" physical education is the only excercise they get. It is NOT a priority in schools. It is a necessity. Physical health is as important if not more so than a "decent education". What good is a decent education if you are a potential heart attack victim while still in elementary school! Do not play that card. Childhood obesity is a real problem, more so than you not liking the math & literature curriculum. Do not undermine the importance of being taught a healthy lifestyle!!! " did anyone say physical exercise isn't important. Is childhood obesity an epidemic? I don't think so. Some kids are obese. Many are not.     I would much rather kids get exercise as opposed to staring at a screen. But all the major tech companies have marketed the false fact that kids need a tablet to school districts everywhere. We have a screen addiction problem: that I will say, and it doesn't take long nor need you go far to notice. "

When you mention how society values sports over education and as this is a thread regarding teachers and education, I drew the conclusion you think that schools also value sports over education. And again "you have see" shoddy teachers get a pass in the classroom because they coach a school team. It is often you have seen or heard, that is not a fact you can prove. It is just planting ideas in people's heads. I do however agree the children today or should I say society as a whole has a screen addiction. But that doesn't start at school, it starts at home.

Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    crake88 said "Something else we can look at in regards to why education, especially in mathematics, is going downhill, is the type of teachers being hired by the school division.     Let's compare two educations: Someone who gets their BA/BSc (3 year) degree has to write papers, complete labs, and put in a lot of hard work. They are taught at least the basic skills in literature and mathematics, and most specialize in at least one of these areas. Then there is someone who gets a Bachelor of Physical Education (3 year degree). They take maybe one English course. Maybe one or two science courses (many take the course, which is referred to Rocks for Jocks - which many cheat their way through). Instead of writing papers and going to labs they are going to activities courses! Dance, golf, volleyball, soccer... You name it. And they get credit for this which is considered "equal" to an academic course.     Let's fast-forward to after graduation from the B.Ed After-Degree. It's time for everyone to apply for jobs. As much as academic skill matters, guess who's GPA has been pushed ahead by their getting an A+ in Dance? Guess who is going to really add to the school environment by coaching an extra-curricular sport? Guess who gets the job? It's okay that they can't teach math and could care less about the math curriculum, as long as they can coach basketball after school and teach gym!     I would say that of my graduating year at least 80% of teachers with Physical Education have gotten jobs - and that's a low guesstimate. There are people I graduated with who were at the top of their classes while getting their BA/BSc and they still don't have jobs, despite the fact that they would be amazing at teaching and also have more passion about students than many of the Physical Education students.     Our priorities in what school divisions look for in teachers has shifted, which I believe plays a big part in the standard of education students are receiving. " make some excellent points.     I will also add that there are many elementary teachers who are not comfortable teaching math.     I have also seen classroom teachers get a pass on shoddy teaching because they coach a sport after school. Schools need teachers to run sports teams and clubs. A principal will not risk upsetting a teacher and calling a teacher out on poor teaching because they fear the teacher will quit their extra-curricular duties leaving a void.     We live in a society, and it's unfortunate IMHO, in which we value sports over education. I will also say that I am a sports fan, and sports are important...but so is decent education. " Have you seen the youth of today? For some of them "forced" physical education is the only excercise they get. It is NOT a priority in schools. It is a necessity. Physical health is as important if not more so than a "decent education". What good is a decent education if you are a potential heart attack victim while still in elementary school! Do not play that card. Childhood obesity is a real problem, more so than you not liking the math & literature curriculum. Do not undermine the importance of being taught a healthy lifestyle!!! " did anyone say physical exercise isn't important. Is childhood obesity an epidemic? I don't think so. Some kids are obese. Many are not.     I would much rather kids get exercise as opposed to staring at a screen. But all the major tech companies have marketed the false fact that kids need a tablet to school districts everywhere. We have a screen addiction problem: that I will say, and it doesn't take long nor need you go far to notice. " When you mention how society values sports over education and as this is a thread regarding teachers and education, I drew the conclusion you think that schools also value sports over education. And again "you have see" shoddy teachers get a pass in the classroom because they coach a school team. It is often you have seen or heard, that is not a fact you can prove. It is just planting ideas in people's heads. I do however agree the children today or should I say society as a whole has a screen addiction. But that doesn't start at school, it starts at home. "

see. My anecdotal comments don't count but the teachers who come here and say they do this and they do that from 7:00 AM to 11:00 most nights is a fact?  
 
Here's a fact. Manitoba is near the bottom in math, reading, and science. That is a fact. All I hear arguing against that are excuses.

Sorbet said "    Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    crake88 said "Something else we can look at in regards to why education, especially in mathematics, is going downhill, is the type of teachers being hired by the school division.     Let's compare two educations: Someone who gets their BA/BSc (3 year) degree has to write papers, complete labs, and put in a lot of hard work. They are taught at least the basic skills in literature and mathematics, and most specialize in at least one of these areas. Then there is someone who gets a Bachelor of Physical Education (3 year degree). They take maybe one English course. Maybe one or two science courses (many take the course, which is referred to Rocks for Jocks - which many cheat their way through). Instead of writing papers and going to labs they are going to activities courses! Dance, golf, volleyball, soccer... You name it. And they get credit for this which is considered "equal" to an academic course.     Let's fast-forward to after graduation from the B.Ed After-Degree. It's time for everyone to apply for jobs. As much as academic skill matters, guess who's GPA has been pushed ahead by their getting an A+ in Dance? Guess who is going to really add to the school environment by coaching an extra-curricular sport? Guess who gets the job? It's okay that they can't teach math and could care less about the math curriculum, as long as they can coach basketball after school and teach gym!     I would say that of my graduating year at least 80% of teachers with Physical Education have gotten jobs - and that's a low guesstimate. There are people I graduated with who were at the top of their classes while getting their BA/BSc and they still don't have jobs, despite the fact that they would be amazing at teaching and also have more passion about students than many of the Physical Education students.     Our priorities in what school divisions look for in teachers has shifted, which I believe plays a big part in the standard of education students are receiving. " make some excellent points.     I will also add that there are many elementary teachers who are not comfortable teaching math.     I have also seen classroom teachers get a pass on shoddy teaching because they coach a sport after school. Schools need teachers to run sports teams and clubs. A principal will not risk upsetting a teacher and calling a teacher out on poor teaching because they fear the teacher will quit their extra-curricular duties leaving a void.     We live in a society, and it's unfortunate IMHO, in which we value sports over education. I will also say that I am a sports fan, and sports are important...but so is decent education. " Have you seen the youth of today? For some of them "forced" physical education is the only excercise they get. It is NOT a priority in schools. It is a necessity. Physical health is as important if not more so than a "decent education". What good is a decent education if you are a potential heart attack victim while still in elementary school! Do not play that card. Childhood obesity is a real problem, more so than you not liking the math & literature curriculum. Do not undermine the importance of being taught a healthy lifestyle!!! " did anyone say physical exercise isn't important. Is childhood obesity an epidemic? I don't think so. Some kids are obese. Many are not.     I would much rather kids get exercise as opposed to staring at a screen. But all the major tech companies have marketed the false fact that kids need a tablet to school districts everywhere. We have a screen addiction problem: that I will say, and it doesn't take long nor need you go far to notice. " When you mention how society values sports over education and as this is a thread regarding teachers and education, I drew the conclusion you think that schools also value sports over education. And again "you have see" shoddy teachers get a pass in the classroom because they coach a school team. It is often you have seen or heard, that is not a fact you can prove. It is just planting ideas in people's heads. I do however agree the children today or should I say society as a whole has a screen addiction. But that doesn't start at school, it starts at home. " see. My anecdotal comments don't count but the teachers who come here and say they do this and they do that from 7:00 AM to 11:00 most nights is a fact?     Here's a fact. Manitoba is near the bottom in math, reading, and science. That is a fact. All I hear arguing against that are excuses. "

There are reasons not excuses why we are lagging. Actual numbers to back up those reasons, not just hearsay. We need to address those issues before we can improve our overall performance. When schools actually have to feed children breakfast to start their day you have to wonder. Schools aren't social services.

Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    crake88 said "Something else we can look at in regards to why education, especially in mathematics, is going downhill, is the type of teachers being hired by the school division.     Let's compare two educations: Someone who gets their BA/BSc (3 year) degree has to write papers, complete labs, and put in a lot of hard work. They are taught at least the basic skills in literature and mathematics, and most specialize in at least one of these areas. Then there is someone who gets a Bachelor of Physical Education (3 year degree). They take maybe one English course. Maybe one or two science courses (many take the course, which is referred to Rocks for Jocks - which many cheat their way through). Instead of writing papers and going to labs they are going to activities courses! Dance, golf, volleyball, soccer... You name it. And they get credit for this which is considered "equal" to an academic course.     Let's fast-forward to after graduation from the B.Ed After-Degree. It's time for everyone to apply for jobs. As much as academic skill matters, guess who's GPA has been pushed ahead by their getting an A+ in Dance? Guess who is going to really add to the school environment by coaching an extra-curricular sport? Guess who gets the job? It's okay that they can't teach math and could care less about the math curriculum, as long as they can coach basketball after school and teach gym!     I would say that of my graduating year at least 80% of teachers with Physical Education have gotten jobs - and that's a low guesstimate. There are people I graduated with who were at the top of their classes while getting their BA/BSc and they still don't have jobs, despite the fact that they would be amazing at teaching and also have more passion about students than many of the Physical Education students.     Our priorities in what school divisions look for in teachers has shifted, which I believe plays a big part in the standard of education students are receiving. " make some excellent points.     I will also add that there are many elementary teachers who are not comfortable teaching math.     I have also seen classroom teachers get a pass on shoddy teaching because they coach a sport after school. Schools need teachers to run sports teams and clubs. A principal will not risk upsetting a teacher and calling a teacher out on poor teaching because they fear the teacher will quit their extra-curricular duties leaving a void.     We live in a society, and it's unfortunate IMHO, in which we value sports over education. I will also say that I am a sports fan, and sports are important...but so is decent education. " Have you seen the youth of today? For some of them "forced" physical education is the only excercise they get. It is NOT a priority in schools. It is a necessity. Physical health is as important if not more so than a "decent education". What good is a decent education if you are a potential heart attack victim while still in elementary school! Do not play that card. Childhood obesity is a real problem, more so than you not liking the math & literature curriculum. Do not undermine the importance of being taught a healthy lifestyle!!! " did anyone say physical exercise isn't important. Is childhood obesity an epidemic? I don't think so. Some kids are obese. Many are not.     I would much rather kids get exercise as opposed to staring at a screen. But all the major tech companies have marketed the false fact that kids need a tablet to school districts everywhere. We have a screen addiction problem: that I will say, and it doesn't take long nor need you go far to notice. " When you mention how society values sports over education and as this is a thread regarding teachers and education, I drew the conclusion you think that schools also value sports over education. And again "you have see" shoddy teachers get a pass in the classroom because they coach a school team. It is often you have seen or heard, that is not a fact you can prove. It is just planting ideas in people's heads. I do however agree the children today or should I say society as a whole has a screen addiction. But that doesn't start at school, it starts at home. " see. My anecdotal comments don't count but the teachers who come here and say they do this and they do that from 7:00 AM to 11:00 most nights is a fact?     Here's a fact. Manitoba is near the bottom in math, reading, and science. That is a fact. All I hear arguing against that are excuses. " There are reasons not excuses why we are lagging. Actual numbers to back up those reasons, not just hearsay. We need to address those issues before we can improve our overall performance. When schools actually have to feed children breakfast to start their day you have to wonder. Schools aren't social services. "

Manitoba is last because some kids don't have breakfast. Not let me ask you what % of Brandon students go to school without eating breakfast?  
 
Do some kids not have breakfast because the schools provide it?

Manitoba is last in math is because some students are in high school and can not do basic addition and subtraction without an an electronic calculator or computer.

Sorbet said "    Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    crake88 said "Something else we can look at in regards to why education, especially in mathematics, is going downhill, is the type of teachers being hired by the school division.     Let's compare two educations: Someone who gets their BA/BSc (3 year) degree has to write papers, complete labs, and put in a lot of hard work. They are taught at least the basic skills in literature and mathematics, and most specialize in at least one of these areas. Then there is someone who gets a Bachelor of Physical Education (3 year degree). They take maybe one English course. Maybe one or two science courses (many take the course, which is referred to Rocks for Jocks - which many cheat their way through). Instead of writing papers and going to labs they are going to activities courses! Dance, golf, volleyball, soccer... You name it. And they get credit for this which is considered "equal" to an academic course.     Let's fast-forward to after graduation from the B.Ed After-Degree. It's time for everyone to apply for jobs. As much as academic skill matters, guess who's GPA has been pushed ahead by their getting an A+ in Dance? Guess who is going to really add to the school environment by coaching an extra-curricular sport? Guess who gets the job? It's okay that they can't teach math and could care less about the math curriculum, as long as they can coach basketball after school and teach gym!     I would say that of my graduating year at least 80% of teachers with Physical Education have gotten jobs - and that's a low guesstimate. There are people I graduated with who were at the top of their classes while getting their BA/BSc and they still don't have jobs, despite the fact that they would be amazing at teaching and also have more passion about students than many of the Physical Education students.     Our priorities in what school divisions look for in teachers has shifted, which I believe plays a big part in the standard of education students are receiving. " make some excellent points.     I will also add that there are many elementary teachers who are not comfortable teaching math.     I have also seen classroom teachers get a pass on shoddy teaching because they coach a sport after school. Schools need teachers to run sports teams and clubs. A principal will not risk upsetting a teacher and calling a teacher out on poor teaching because they fear the teacher will quit their extra-curricular duties leaving a void.     We live in a society, and it's unfortunate IMHO, in which we value sports over education. I will also say that I am a sports fan, and sports are important...but so is decent education. " Have you seen the youth of today? For some of them "forced" physical education is the only excercise they get. It is NOT a priority in schools. It is a necessity. Physical health is as important if not more so than a "decent education". What good is a decent education if you are a potential heart attack victim while still in elementary school! Do not play that card. Childhood obesity is a real problem, more so than you not liking the math & literature curriculum. Do not undermine the importance of being taught a healthy lifestyle!!! " did anyone say physical exercise isn't important. Is childhood obesity an epidemic? I don't think so. Some kids are obese. Many are not.     I would much rather kids get exercise as opposed to staring at a screen. But all the major tech companies have marketed the false fact that kids need a tablet to school districts everywhere. We have a screen addiction problem: that I will say, and it doesn't take long nor need you go far to notice. " When you mention how society values sports over education and as this is a thread regarding teachers and education, I drew the conclusion you think that schools also value sports over education. And again "you have see" shoddy teachers get a pass in the classroom because they coach a school team. It is often you have seen or heard, that is not a fact you can prove. It is just planting ideas in people's heads. I do however agree the children today or should I say society as a whole has a screen addiction. But that doesn't start at school, it starts at home. " see. My anecdotal comments don't count but the teachers who come here and say they do this and they do that from 7:00 AM to 11:00 most nights is a fact?     Here's a fact. Manitoba is near the bottom in math, reading, and science. That is a fact. All I hear arguing against that are excuses. " There are reasons not excuses why we are lagging. Actual numbers to back up those reasons, not just hearsay. We need to address those issues before we can improve our overall performance. When schools actually have to feed children breakfast to start their day you have to wonder. Schools aren't social services. " Manitoba is last because some kids don't have breakfast. Not let me ask you what % of Brandon students go to school without eating breakfast?     Do some kids not have breakfast because the schools provide it? "

Yes, I believe that parents not even taking the interest in their children's welfare by doing a basic thing like feeding them is a huge detriment to their education. All you see is BAD GREEDY TEACHERS and a curriculum you don't agree with. My last comment on the subject, let the teachers do what they are paid to do but parents very much need to step up to the plate.

Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    Daphne said "    Sorbet said "    crake88 said "Something else we can look at in regards to why education, especially in mathematics, is going downhill, is the type of teachers being hired by the school division.     Let's compare two educations: Someone who gets their BA/BSc (3 year) degree has to write papers, complete labs, and put in a lot of hard work. They are taught at least the basic skills in literature and mathematics, and most specialize in at least one of these areas. Then there is someone who gets a Bachelor of Physical Education (3 year degree). They take maybe one English course. Maybe one or two science courses (many take the course, which is referred to Rocks for Jocks - which many cheat their way through). Instead of writing papers and going to labs they are going to activities courses! Dance, golf, volleyball, soccer... You name it. And they get credit for this which is considered "equal" to an academic course.     Let's fast-forward to after graduation from the B.Ed After-Degree. It's time for everyone to apply for jobs. As much as academic skill matters, guess who's GPA has been pushed ahead by their getting an A+ in Dance? Guess who is going to really add to the school environment by coaching an extra-curricular sport? Guess who gets the job? It's okay that they can't teach math and could care less about the math curriculum, as long as they can coach basketball after school and teach gym!     I would say that of my graduating year at least 80% of teachers with Physical Education have gotten jobs - and that's a low guesstimate. There are people I graduated with who were at the top of their classes while getting their BA/BSc and they still don't have jobs, despite the fact that they would be amazing at teaching and also have more passion about students than many of the Physical Education students.     Our priorities in what school divisions look for in teachers has shifted, which I believe plays a big part in the standard of education students are receiving. " make some excellent points.     I will also add that there are many elementary teachers who are not comfortable teaching math.     I have also seen classroom teachers get a pass on shoddy teaching because they coach a sport after school. Schools need teachers to run sports teams and clubs. A principal will not risk upsetting a teacher and calling a teacher out on poor teaching because they fear the teacher will quit their extra-curricular duties leaving a void.     We live in a society, and it's unfortunate IMHO, in which we value sports over education. I will also say that I am a sports fan, and sports are important...but so is decent education. " Have you seen the youth of today? For some of them "forced" physical education is the only excercise they get. It is NOT a priority in schools. It is a necessity. Physical health is as important if not more so than a "decent education". What good is a decent education if you are a potential heart attack victim while still in elementary school! Do not play that card. Childhood obesity is a real problem, more so than you not liking the math & literature curriculum. Do not undermine the importance of being taught a healthy lifestyle!!! " did anyone say physical exercise isn't important. Is childhood obesity an epidemic? I don't think so. Some kids are obese. Many are not.     I would much rather kids get exercise as opposed to staring at a screen. But all the major tech companies have marketed the false fact that kids need a tablet to school districts everywhere. We have a screen addiction problem: that I will say, and it doesn't take long nor need you go far to notice. " When you mention how society values sports over education and as this is a thread regarding teachers and education, I drew the conclusion you think that schools also value sports over education. And again "you have see" shoddy teachers get a pass in the classroom because they coach a school team. It is often you have seen or heard, that is not a fact you can prove. It is just planting ideas in people's heads. I do however agree the children today or should I say society as a whole has a screen addiction. But that doesn't start at school, it starts at home. " see. My anecdotal comments don't count but the teachers who come here and say they do this and they do that from 7:00 AM to 11:00 most nights is a fact?     Here's a fact. Manitoba is near the bottom in math, reading, and science. That is a fact. All I hear arguing against that are excuses. " There are reasons not excuses why we are lagging. Actual numbers to back up those reasons, not just hearsay. We need to address those issues before we can improve our overall performance. When schools actually have to feed children breakfast to start their day you have to wonder. Schools aren't social services. " Manitoba is last because some kids don't have breakfast. Not let me ask you what % of Brandon students go to school without eating breakfast?     Do some kids not have breakfast because the schools provide it? " Yes, I believe that parents not even taking the interest in their children's welfare by doing a basic thing like feeding them is a huge detriment to their education. All you see is BAD GREEDY TEACHERS and a curriculum you don't agree with. My last comment on the subject, let the teachers do what they are paid to do but parents very much need to step up to the plate. "

it's been a common ploy of the education establishment to blame parents when things go wrong, while assuming absolutely no responsibility. The kids I work with have parents who care. The work samples in math and English that they bring to me are atrocious.  
 
Being told they don't need to memorize multiplication facts is dangerous. Good luck doing algebra without a solid grasp of multiplication and division. Good luck doing calculus without a solid foundation in algebra.  
 
Yes, the curriculum is garbage. I 2013 they returned basic multiplication facts to the curriculum. They were absent before 2013. Now, kids by the end of grade 4 need to know their 5x5 multiplication facts, and kids in grade 5 need to know them to 9x9. In reality, the 9x9 multiplication facts should be learned and memorized on grade 3 so that kids can quickly progress to more difficult math.  
 
So, yes, I blame a ridiculous curriculum for much of the problems in math and English, where something like grammar is barely mentioned in a 400 page document.

Didn't you get proven wrong on this same rant last year and the year before.  
After 30 years of teaching in another province and 3 years of being proven wrong in your attacks against teachers in this province, you should know that most provinces uses the same basic outline.  
 
Please post the curriculum from the education authority you like.  
 
I would also like to see something that supports your radical theory that parents play no part in a child's education.  

loeog said "Didn't you get proven wrong on this same rant last year and the year before.   After 30 years of teaching in another province and 3 years of being proven wrong in your attacks against teachers in this province, you should know that most provinces uses the same basic outline.     Please post the curriculum from the education authority you like.     I would also like to see something that supports your radical theory that parents play no part in a child's education.   "

did I get proven wrong with?  
 
My attacks aren't against teachers. There are great teachers, but also many weak teachers.  
 
What is this same basic out line you talk about?  
 
Where did I say parents don't play a part? I said parents get a brunt of the blame when things go wrong. In fact, I would say parents should be playing a larger part in the education of their children because today's current ELA and math curricula are very inefficient.  
 
If we wanted to improve math, let's look at Singapore.  
 
You asked me to post it. Here it is.  
 
http://www.moe.gov.sg/education/syllabuses/sciences/files/maths-primary-2007.pdf  
 
I'll give a couple of quick examples. Take a look at Singapore Primary 4 (Grade 4) They are expected to divide a 4 digit number by a one digit number. Manitoba's requirement is for students to demonstrate an understanding of division (1-digit divisor and UP  
to 2-digit dividend).  
 
In Singapore, students are expected to understand mixed numbers and improper fractions in Grade 4. In MB it's Grade 6.  
 
In Singapore Grade 4 students are expected to add, subtract, and multiply fractions. In MB, Grade 7 students add and subtract fractions, and Grade 8 students multiply fractions.  
 
Grade 2 students in Singapore are expected to be building up the multiplication tables of 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10 and committing to memory. In MB students are expected to know their 5x5 times tables by the END OF GRADE 4,  
 
I could go on and on. So in essence, the Singapore Curriculum that I posted is the one I would like.  
 
I will also post MB's dumbed down curriculum.  
 
http://www.edu.gov.mb.ca/k12/cur/math/framework_k-8/  
 
Have a great day!  
 
 
 
Edited by Sorbet, 2015-09-19 09:56:47

You needed to go to Singapore, nice.  
 
They have an amazing record, I bet the parents in Singapore put huge pressure on their kids to perform.  
 
But like you say, parents have a small part in education.  
 
Edited by loeog, 2015-09-19 10:16:04

I bet this would work in Canada.  
 
Singapore:  
As part of its goal to create a meritocratic society, Singapore follows a very strict system of exams and tracking that starts from an early age. Even by the end of the equivalent of 3rd grade, primary schools start tracking their students internally in order to best teach to their ability. By the end of 6th grade, students take an exam that determines the type and ranking of their secondary school and life trajectory more generally. This determination can still be altered, but only in rare cases. By the end of 10th grade, the students have a another exam (which can differ based on their previous track) which determines whether the students can continue on an academic path.  
 
Are we ready for Sorbet's solution?  
 
 
Edited by loeog, 2015-09-19 10:28:46

I went to Singapore. You asked me for a curriculum I like. Next time be more specific. Back in 1980, MB's math curriculum was much closer to Singapore's current curriculum than the modern day MB curriculum. I gave you some easy examples and you chose to avoid.  
 
Now you are saying that it is wrong to put pressure on kids. In your opinion, would that constitute bad parenting?  
 
And where did I say parents play a small part in education? There should be no need for you to obfuscate. Why you choose to, I do not know.  
 
Parents are extremely important, but remember kids are in school for 6.5 hours a day. Not all parents have the time to spend an extra 2 hours after school each day to make up for a weak curriculum.  
 

taxpayer9 said "Manitoba is last in math is because some students are in high school and can not do basic addition and subtraction without an an electronic calculator or computer. "

were told for a long time in this province not to have kids memorize mult. tables or any other basic facts. The good teachers ignored this nonsense, closed the doors and did it regardless.  
 

 
 
Edited by Veil, 2015-09-19 12:58:13