Discussions

I love our country. I love the idea of a democracy and the freedoms it allows. I also believe this freedom comes with responsibility for each and everyone of us. That responsibility is to work together as a community to protect each other and the vulnerable in our families/community. Freedom is not a free for all.  
 
I started a thread on Bill C-11 because I saw a lot of negative posts online, fear mongering and misinformation. So I set out to learn the truth of the bill. Indeed any bill brought forth to government is extremely hard to read. All the technical and legal jargon makes it a test in patience and focus. I followed and joined the different groups on Facebook with the hope of reasonable debate/discussion. I followed all the political parties online. What I got was oppressive anger, bullying and caustic rhetoric. I even got banned from the Trucker/Freedom Convoy group that supposedly was fighting for freedoms.  
It is each person's responsibility as a Canadian to stay on top of what issues affect our democratic ways. Each person has their own views and I am always game for honest debate/discussion as that is the hallmark of a democracy.  
 
I fear our democracy threatened in the same way it is being threatened in the US and around the world.  
For us here in Canada, I suspect people are tired, there is a lot of anger and stress as a result of the pandemic, loss of leadership in our country.  
 
The divisiveness in our country is due to several factors IMO:  
1. the loss of leadership, Justin Trudeau has all but disappeared from the views of the average person. Possibly he has lost touch with what his country needs. Has he done some good for Canada, maybe. Has he faced multiple challenges never before seen by other Prime ministers, Yes he has. Has he made mistakes, most definitely and so did past Prime Ministers and so will future Prime Ministers.  
2. The World Wide Web! The internet started in the US as a military tool. But being a capitalist nation, people in the US and other countries saw the internet as a tool to share with the world and gain riches doing that. I suspect its success past even the most idealistic hopes and dreams. The internet has affected all our lives, allows us free access to all types of information and connection on a global scale.  
The drawback of it being unregulated means people can post their own beliefs, some people will use this tool to create chaos and disrupt the very values a democracy holds dear. There are people in the world who when allowed total freedom will push chaos in a way that blindsides and manipulates the average person. They push their own negative agendas to fear monger and play on the distrust people have around governments and institutions that ideally are meant to help us all live a better life. Their tactics only feed oppression, anger and intolerance.  
IMO the internet is the biggest source of division and threat to democracy.  
I said above that democracy is built on the ability to debate and discuss the issues. The internet destroys that.  
It is why we all need to be better informed on how to use the internet. It is why there needs to be some regulation on the internet as a for profit business.  
 
Just my thoughts at the moment.  
 
Edited by Spades!!, 2022-11-07 10:11:30

So you are advocating for the regulation of free speech on the internet? That's taking a sledgehammer to a problem instead of the root cause of that problem.  
 
The internet isn't a for-profit business. It's a platform for exchange. Sure, lots of for-profit companies have capitalized on that platform, but ultimately I choose what services I want to use on the platform. Neither the government nor the corporations get that choice. My internet provider is agnostic to what I choose to do with my access.  
 
So the internet is a great equalizer in this way. Everyone can have a voice, even if that voice is contrary to human rights and democracy. And sometimes, even if that voice is criminal. And sometimes what is criminal over here is very much a human right over there.  
 
Today the government you like censors them. Tomorrow the government they like censors you.  
 
Censorship on the platform that enables the very concept of free speech should terrify everyone.  
 
I think what you're really getting at is that the internet has laid bare some very real threats to democracy and human rights.  
 
Personally I think those threats stem from a lack of education and critical thinking among a far too large segment of the Canadian population. They also come from racism and intolerance that we have long ignored because we liked to think Canada wasn't like that.  
 
But silencing those people online, which by the way will be virtually impossible, is not going to solve the problem.

"The internet isn't a for-profit business. It's a platform for exchange. Sure, lots of for-profit companies have capitalized on that platform, but ultimately I choose what services I want to use on the platform. Neither the government nor the corporations get that choice. My internet provider is agnostic to what I choose to do with my access. "  
 
One could argue that the internet as merely a platform ceased to exist about 10-15 years ago. I would challenge you to find anything you can do on the internet that doesn't have monetization attached in some way. It doesn't exist anymore.  
 
Have you every browsed your ad settings on Google? It's uncanny how much data they have, and monetize, on you. And that's only the surface of the data. The reality is that we don't even really know how deep the data goes because it's all machine-learning driven that we don't fully understand anymore, and haven't understood in a decade. But it's profitable, so it continues.  
 
I don't really get a choice anymore about how things are done a lot of time. Lots of things you can only order/purchase online now, which requires the creation of yet another account/sign-in. Facebook is the primary vehicle for transmitting info and if you don't have a Facebook account (like me) there are literally things you can't participate in. It's getting increasingly hard to buy a vehicle or even appliances that aren't connected regardless if that's a feature that's desired. People have printers that brick because they don't want to connect them to the Internet or won't change the ink cartridge just because it's been 60 days since they last bought ink.  
 
Do I still fundamentally have a choice? Yes. I can choose to buy used/vintage/repair etc instead of new. I can choose to stay out of the loop by not having Facebook. I can choose to simply not use the internet, and pay cash for everything when I am able.  
 
But you cannot argue, in good faith, that the internet is somehow freedom and agnostic. Arguing the service provider is agnostic is like saying the parking lot of a big box store is agnostic as to whether you spend money there - it only exists as a way to get you in the door. Everything else is controlled by money.  
 
Any sense of freedom is an illusion.

on Canada Proud and other conservative pages, they love to cry about freedom of speech, though in Canada it's actually Freedom of Expression. But they like to think it only applies to them and they can say anything they want, yet ban anyone who doesn't follow their deals. They cry about freedoms, yet would love to take away the freedoms of others.  
 
This whole thing with Twitter is more about Elon not liking how a private company is restricting him, so he bought it so he can make the rules. Now he's restricting people who he doesn't like. Elon has already banned people who say things he doesn't like, especially about him. You go on Parler or Truth and they have rules on what you can and can't say.

The internet is a platform. It is owned by no one and by everyone. The main use of the internet is by companies and individuals to make money. It is mostly a for profit venue. It is used for sharing information globally with a large number of those sites requiring a subscription. The internet is largely unregulated. Anyone can set up a site, blog, video etc that is seen around the world by any person who wishes to click on that link. That is the beauty of the internet.  
Does the content on the internet need to be regulated. I don't know. I am against censorship but something about how misinformation on the internet feels wrong.  
What I am trying to say is the use of the internet by groups/individuals has created an online environment that is potentially detrimental to democracy itself. A democracy is a way of governing that reflects the will of the people through elected representatives. The will of the people is the key to a democracy. Elected individuals are chosen by the will of the majority which is influenced by open debate and discussion on subjects of interest.  
To properly have debate and discussion a person needs to be informed. To be informed you need to access facts on the issue. However the amount of misinformation on the internet is making it challenging to find the truth on issues. The excess of sensationalized content is spreading biased information. It creates chaos and divides people. What does this do to the will of the people? It manipulates the will of the people. The will of the people is now subject to the whims of outsiders, people who have their own agendas, people whose only desire is to create chaos. There is no Canadian online group that will let you engage in debate or discussion. They shut you down.

JosephC said: "So the internet is a great equalizer in this way. Everyone can have a voice, even if that voice is contrary to human rights and democracy. And sometimes, even if that voice is criminal. And sometimes what is criminal over here is very much a human right over there."  
 
Sounds like you are ok with people spreading speech around intolerance and hate. That its ok to push for oppression of a particular group of people simply because they are different? That it is ok for someone to influence vulnerable populations, brainwash and manipulate people to hate another group of people. That its ok to manipulate information on a product and make wild claims to sell that product which in the end hurts people both health wise and financially.  
 
Sounds like you are ok with this.  
 
I am not! Freedom of speech comes with a responsibility. While I am not a fan of censoring material, I am at odds with how to manage material that is of criminal/nefarious intent.  
 
Edited by Spades!!, 2022-11-07 18:25:24

the information on the internet is controlled by algorithms that manipulate your searches to show you what it thinks you want to see.  
 
How does that equate to freedom?

Drama, sensationalism, addiction is what makes money, which is why the for profit part of the internet ends up having algorithms that promote that kind of content.  
 
But not everything on the internet is looking to make money. Money is being spent to only direct you to those parts of the internet.  
 
Thousands of develops donate their time to create software that they make no money from. Using the internet to collaborate and share.  
 
I play old online video games that no longer have commercial servers and people who love the games have set up their own servers for people to play on, at their own cost. Donations appreciated but not expected.  
 
With Twitter we're seeing thousands of people migrating to applications that use the standardized ActivityPub protocol to share social media amoung different applications without being tied to a specific platform.

The Internet has opened doors for people all around the world and that is a good thing. But it definitely has a dark side. I truly believe the abundance of misinformation and global access by both people who intend to lie and deceive and people who use their platform to spread information on which they know nothing about is a major contributor to the division among people.  
If you want to be informed make sure your source is credible and has the knowledge to speak on the subject.

For as long as humans have been around, we have managed to find ways to destroy each other, and the internet is just the latest tool we use to accomplish that.  
 
To lay blame with the internet is akin to saying that weapons are the reason for violence.  
 
We has the human race have to do better. The root of the cause of what is happening around the world is really selfish extremism. I see it every day played out on may platforms, including the internet.  
 
More and more very day, the centrist views are becoming lost among the loud and colorful voices of the extremists, both left and right. As a user of the internet, we have to do better to silence those voices, and the best way to do that is to simply ignore them.  
 
So, while you are on Tik Tok, Twitter, Facebook, Youtube, Instagram, Reddit, or whatever, just pass over the extremist views rather than liking them or commenting on them...that's really the only way to suppress their hateful and extremist views...regardless what side you are on.  
 
Edited by PrimeConvoy, 2022-11-08 09:23:17

People have the freedom to choose which sites to use, what to buy, what to watch, and what to read. Websites and businesses have the freedom to choose if they want to allow people to use their services or not. Adding regulations will not increase freedom.

The whole point of regulation, and some might not get this, is never to increase freedom.  
 
Every regulation is aimed to either prevent the likely hood of harm, or to foster an environment for growth, fairness and/or equal access to something.  
 
For example, installing a stop sign at an intersection may not make my life better or easier, but is does a good job of preventing accidents.