Discussions

I agree with bringing in refugees but it was noted in the press that there are over 800,000 people accessing food banks. What about them? And who's going to pay for these refugees?

Firstly there are some incredibly naive people around.  
Some time ago a Millionaire wanted to buy an uninhabited island, from Turkey I believe and take the refugees there, to work for him and deal with their welfare needs ie Housing etc  
What should have happened is that the countries involved should have looked at this and worked it into a plan, find a haven for the refugees and keep them there.  
If they acccept this and stay quite happily, which they should be quite happy with providing it is safe and everything is provided, they are true refugees. Those not happy with this arrangement must surely be terrorists or economic migrants and even economic migrants would probably be quite happy to be boarded fed and watered. This,collectively would also cost far less in a. Human lives and b. $$$$$$$$. for all concerned taxpayers right.  
Sleepers are another matter entirely and can suddenly appear, after many years of happy citizenship status. We are not far from the border, which makes Canada a viable option for entry into the US

Annetta said "Appear to be refugees. Does that mean no refugee will ever be a terrorist? So, do not worry about proper screening of refugees.     Similar to the idea: none of the recent bomb threats called in for the Air France flights have actually proven to be real. Does that mean that the next one called in should be ignored? Do not divert the plane, do not move passengers off the plane, do not check the plane for bombs? "

No one is saying not to do screening. Both the RCMP and CSIS don't think screening will be an issue.  
 
"The heads of Canada’s police and spy agencies are backing the Trudeau government’s plans to safely screen and bring in 25,000 Syrian refugees by the end of the year."  
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/rcmp-csis-support-trudeaus-plan-to-resettle-25000-syrian-refugees/article27342588/?service=mobile

loeog said "    MrKellyGraham said "So no refugees were involved in the attacks in France. In fact it's looking more and more as if the sole intent of the acts was to get the West to cut off the refugees.     http://www.dailynewsbin.com/news/none-of-the-isis-attackers-in-paris-were-syrian-refugees/23037/ " Your digging deep to find that website.   Not sure I would trust it as a source     Background info on Dailynewsbin   http://beingbutmen.blogspot.ca/2015/11/today-tim-martyn-from-web-site-daily.html "

It has been widely reported that so far every identified attacker is a European national.  
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/the-paris-suspects-what-we-know-sofar/article27268032/  
 
It has also been widely reported that the passport found on scene is a fake.

Sometimes when people provide links I sort of get carried away and end up reading many of the other articles that are also on those pages, one that I sort of found interesting had to do with surveys that were done on how people felt about the refugees and I seem to fall into the group that maybe feels that the time line was sort of being pushed. It was nice to read that the RCMP as well as our national security force didn't seem to be concerned that it was not doable. When the idea was first floated during the election campaign, there was the idea that people from other agencies would be working on it as well. It was mentioned that we are a country of resources, and it makes me feel a bit better about government in general when we get to see personnel from different departments working together.  
 
I still believe that we have a pretty big order to fill, but maybe with the cooperation of many government departments things will work out. It is also nice to see more information being released about the plan.  
 
Edited by don brown, 2015-11-19 21:20:07

I think I have to take a 180 on this topic and say that any danger of terrorists hiding amongst the refugees is slim.  
 
Canada's taking women/children/families from the first waves of refugees that have registered into the camps and have all been triaged and received biometric iris scans by the UN so no identies can be faked.  
 
These first waves arrived as early as 2011, what kind of terrorist(with a family) is going to have the forsight to check themselves into a refugee camp years ago, somehow knowing that the war would escalate, that ISIS would go on to capture huge swaths of territory, causing a mass refugee exodus of fleeing terrified Syrians, provoking western countries to begin accepting refugees.  
 
That somehow this terrorist family man would have known this, and it was all part of their grand Master plan, years in the making, to get to one of these countries, and carry out their plot.  
It's laughable.  
 
So much more likely and easier for ISIS to radicalize a Canadian born Muslim over the internet, and send them the plans for a plot or how to make a bomb, through encrypted messages. On top of that, the chances of dying by a terrorist attack is so incredibly small, its completely misplaced fear, you should be more worried about chewing food propery so you don't choke.  
 
Syria is a liberal Muslim country, as terrible as the quran teachings are, most Syrians follow it in a benign way, the baathist government under Bashar Assad discourages the use of burkas or hijabs, discourages fundamental Islam altogether, which is why the moderate muslims(rebels) and the extreme muslims(ISIS) have rebelled against the regime and themselves, therefore causing the liberal muslims to flee the country, there's accounts of women stripping off their burkas after escaping rebel territory, men shaving their beards and such.  
I would feel better if they would throw away their superstitious stone age beliefs altogether, but a good chunk of Canada has their own version of stone age beliefs based on a violent book too, so I can't hold that against then in particular.  
 
I think my biggest concern is the impact of 25,000 refugees who just dont pass the same requirements required to immigrants, most normal immigrants are educated professionals who contrary to popular ignorant belief actually strenghten the economy and create the jobs they are often accused of stealing, refugees on the other hand are a net burden on society.  
 
But Canada takes in roughly that many refugees every year and they settle in, and life goes on, double the amount this year I'm sure won't break the system.  
 
But there are 20 million refugees in the world, there are always going to be refugees, there's always going to be conflict and pain and suffering, but that's the nature of life and bringing in refugees won't ever change that.

Enfyre, that post is on the edge of arrogance. Your generalizations are too broad and you can't possibly be as fully informed about the statements you so boldly make.  
 
When issues are complex, those who adamantly preach simple statements are shown to have big opinions but little understanding.  
 
That 'violent' book you mention tells of a man who told the world to not only stop violence, but to actively do good to those who hate us, and then he took the violence on himself for our sake.  
 
If more of us actually knew and understood what that book said and what the 'violent' history sections mean, this country would have less violence.  
 
So please stop disparaging a text which makes me love others and teaches a love that causes us to take the shot or the bomb for another person.  
 
This thread is about terrorists killing others, not my sweet grandpa praying for and loving his family in an amazing way because of his good beliefs.  
 
Let's not dangerously mix up the two from a lack of understanding.

Timetowakeup said "So it has been announced that the refugees will be sent to military bases across Canada. So even if screenings and backgrounds aren't finished they can be finalized while they are held there. So the good news is they can be here and safe, then they can be released as they get fully checked out. "

lands on our soil they will receive all rights under our constitution. If there are any people in there that shouldn't be it will take Canada years to get them out of the country and they will have a lawyer paid for by Canadians.  
 
I see no reason to not properly screen everyone BEFORE they get here.  
 
Britian is taking 20,000 over the next 4 years, the US is taking 10,000!  
 
 
 
 
Edited by SJK, 2015-11-20 08:59:33

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/500k-federal-ad-campaign-to-tout-refugee-plan-as-a-national-project-document-reveals

SJK said "    Timetowakeup said "So it has been announced that the refugees will be sent to military bases across Canada. So even if screenings and backgrounds aren't finished they can be finalized while they are held there. So the good news is they can be here and safe, then they can be released as they get fully checked out. " lands on our soil they will receive all rights under our constitution. If there are any people in there that shouldn't be it will take Canada years to get them out of the country and they will have a lawyer paid for by Canadians.     I see no reason to not properly screen everyone BEFORE they get here.     Britian is taking 20,000 over the next 4 years, the US is taking 10,000!           Edited by SJK, 2015-11-20 08:59:33"

And  
germany expects to take in 1 million this year,  
sweden 170,000  
Turkey already has about 2 million  
Lebanon 1.4 million  
Jordan 629,000  
France has agreed to another 30,000 after the attacks.  
 
To put this in perspective to match Germany and Sweden we would need to allow in ~425,000 people based on our population compared to theirs.  
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/globe-politics-insider/jeffrey-simpson-europe-caught-between-noble-instincts-harsh-realities/article27376604/  
 
No one is saying we wont properly screen refugees before they arrive. As previously stated they've all been pre-vetted by the UN, and then we are vetting them again.  
 
Both CSIS and the RCMP believe everyone will be properly vetted. If the organizations doing the vetting say it can be done why do so many people believe it won't be?

regarding your question:"Both CSIS and the RCMP believe everyone will be properly vetted. If the organizations doing the vetting say it can be done why do so many people believe it won't be?". There are two possible answers.  
 
1.) My mind is made up. These people are evil. I have not met them, but I know they are evil. Don't try to confuse me with the facts.  
 
2.) Any religion or culture other than mine is bad. No, I am not a racist. It's just that "they" are bad and "we" are good.  
 
I must say, however, that I am encouraged by the evolution in some of the positions stated here. Some people are actually listening to reason and backing away from their previously xenophobic, or Islamophobic positions.  
 
Our whole country was built on immigration and accepting refugees. We have become one of the best countries in the world because of this. Why would we want to stop now ?  

standard standard h8r said "regarding your question:"Both CSIS and the RCMP believe everyone will be properly vetted. If the organizations doing the vetting say it can be done why do so many people believe it won't be?". There are two possible answers.     1.) My mind is made up. These people are evil. I have not met them, but I know they are evil. Don't try to confuse me with the facts.     2.) Any religion or culture other than mine is bad. No, I am not a racist. It's just that "they" are bad and "we" are good.     I must say, however, that I am encouraged by the evolution in some of the positions stated here. Some people are actually listening to reason and backing away from their previously xenophobic, or Islamophobic positions.     Our whole country was built on immigration and accepting refugees. We have become one of the best countries in the world because of this. Why would we want to stop now ?   "

3) The public has lost faith in our Government to protect Canadians by adhering to an ill conceived promise with numbers and dates as the motivating factor.  
 
Asking the Government to slow down and make sure everything that needs to be done is done is not racist or Islamophobic. It's just plain old common sense. Right now these people are safe, they are being fed, have clean drinking water and have access to doctors. Let's just do it properly.  
 
http://www.vice.com/video/ground-zero-syria-zaatari-refugee-camp

that you and others believe that you are in a better position to determine the viability of the vetting process than the RCMP and CSIS ?  
 
I trust them to make the right decision. Why don't you ?

refugees does canada bring in per year? I think it's 10,000 per year. ( not people trying to immigrate but actual refugees ) And justin wants to bring in 25,000 in one month. There's nothing wrong with being cautious and thorough. I would think that all gov. organizations have been told to tow the line on this one. My question is how come none of the neighbouring arab countries are taking any refugees? How come the young male adult refugees aren't fighting for their own country?

stonepicker said "refugees does canada bring in per year? I think it's 10,000 per year. ( not people trying to immigrate but actual refugees ) And justin wants to bring in 25,000 in one month. There's nothing wrong with being cautious and thorough. I would think that all gov. organizations have been told to tow the line on this one. My question is how come none of the neighbouring arab countries are taking any refugees? How come the young male adult refugees aren't fighting for their own country? "

I'm not really sure where you are getting your information from.  
 
1) Neighbouring countries are taking in vast numbers. As I posted earlier. 97% of reggaes have been taken in by neighbouring countries.  
 
Turkey has sheltered ~2 million! Alone. They have been pleading with the world for help as their system is breaking down attempting to save this many people. So far they have spent over 2 Billion helping their neighbours and they are not a rich country.  
 
Lebanon has taken in ~1.1 million  
 
Jordan has taken in ~629,000  
 
The refugees in these countries now make up ~25% of the population of these countries. How much more do you expect them to be able to take?  
 
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/09/world/welcome-syrian-refugees-countries/index.html  
 
2) You might not have heard but there is a civil war going on in Syria. Many people have stayed to fight for their country. Half of the displaced population has stayed in the country. That is millions of people who have stayed to fight.  

SJK said "    standard standard h8r said "regarding your question:"Both CSIS and the RCMP believe everyone will be properly vetted. If the organizations doing the vetting say it can be done why do so many people believe it won't be?". There are two possible answers.     1.) My mind is made up. These people are evil. I have not met them, but I know they are evil. Don't try to confuse me with the facts.     2.) Any religion or culture other than mine is bad. No, I am not a racist. It's just that "they" are bad and "we" are good.     I must say, however, that I am encouraged by the evolution in some of the positions stated here. Some people are actually listening to reason and backing away from their previously xenophobic, or Islamophobic positions.     Our whole country was built on immigration and accepting refugees. We have become one of the best countries in the world because of this. Why would we want to stop now ?   " 3) The public has lost faith in our Government to protect Canadians by adhering to an ill conceived promise with numbers and dates as the motivating factor.     Asking the Government to slow down and make sure everything that needs to be done is done is not racist or Islamophobic. It's just plain old common sense. Right now these people are safe, they are being fed, have clean drinking water and have access to doctors. Let's just do it properly.     http://www.vice.com/video/ground-zero-syria-zaatari-refugee-camp "

have to disagree with your statement as the public has in no way lost faith in this government. You can try to just make stuff up but remember this government was elected to do just what they are doing, fulfilling a campaign promise.  
 
ONCE AGAIN we will trust the judgement of CSIS and the RCMP before you and the rest of the conservative sheep.  
 
It is happening as pledged and you are just going to have to accept it!!!  

What would Syria's neighbouring countries think if they knew we are about to spend 1.2 billion dollars to rush 25,000 people out of their countries.  
 
I also wonder how many Syrian children will die because of us spending 1.2 BILLION dollars on an election promise verses sending the extra 1.2 BILLION dollars to the areas aid camps.  
 
1.2 BILLION vs the 50 Million we normally spend yearly.  
 
FYI  
Government-assisted refugees have long had some of the worst settlement outcomes of any class of newcomer. Government-assisted refugees spend 56 per cent of their income on housing. Even three years after arrival, Canada’s labour market offers a job to just 59 per cent of government-assisted refugees, compared to 72 per cent of privately sponsored refugees.  
 
http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/making-sense-of-canadas-refugee-and-immigration-numbers/  
 
In 3 years, 41 percent will still be unemployed and lost in the welfare system and the 59 percent that work will be the working poor in our country.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by loeog, 2015-11-20 17:03:01

 
Are any of these countries taking in any refugees ?

Bob 33221 said "I agree with bringing in refugees but it was noted in the press that there are over 800,000 people accessing food banks. What about them? And who's going to pay for these refugees? "

People should be shaking in their boots, we have un homed un fed people here already, why don't we feed them 1st ?? Who voted for this border line nut case ? I was here when his old man started to ruin this country, GEES, and here we are again, with a nut in charge of the country, the refugees should be placed in the areas that voted red, so they can care for them, we will fend for our poor and hungry in the rest. I know who the plan calls for to pay for them, All of us, they will be digging deeper into our pocket ?? Cant believe this simpleton got a majority government. WOW

Regretfully, I don't know how to put a link in here. There is an excellent article, "Never Again: A Jewish Take On Anti-Syrian Refugee Sentiment" that you might wish to Google - I thought it was well worth reading. For me, this puts the situation into perspective.

The refugees need to be checked like any other person trying to immigrate to Canada. Health checks need to be done to protect our population from diseases that are quite common there but non existent here. Imagine if you were a person trying to legally immigrate and 25000 people jumped the line in front of you.  
Govt employees have to do these checks and we all know how much work gets done around Christmas and the new year. Bring in refugees on a reasonable timeline not a political timeline.

Why wasn't I informed of this, when did it happen, must of just been a recent happening, in the last few months we had a campaign for a federal election and I'm sure if there were problems someone would have mentioned it or had policy to address the problems. Going back to the year 2000 there have been some long standing problems become greater, child povery has increased, been studied and ignored by all governments , including right, left and centre.  
Lamest excuse I've heard for doing nothing, oh wait, we've already done nothing.

Heritage said "Enfyre, that post is on the edge of arrogance. Your generalizations are too broad and you can't possibly be as fully informed about the statements you so boldly make.     When issues are complex, those who adamantly preach simple statements are shown to have big opinions but little understanding.     That 'violent' book you mention tells of a man who told the world to not only stop violence, but to actively do good to those who hate us, and then he took the violence on himself for our sake.     If more of us actually knew and understood what that book said and what the 'violent' history sections mean, this country would have less violence.     So please stop disparaging a text which makes me love others and teaches a love that causes us to take the shot or the bomb for another person.     This thread is about terrorists killing others, not my sweet grandpa praying for and loving his family in an amazing way because of his good beliefs.     Let's not dangerously mix up the two from a lack of understanding. "

I could take your first paragraph and apply it to almost any post on here, yes I'm generalizing and simplifying a complex issue, in a way we all are, but unlike alot of the knee-jerk responses to the topic, im using verifiable facts as the basis of my opinions on the matter. I'm not declaring any of those opinions as absolute fact above questioning, its up for debate and discussion, my rationale may be wrong, its put out there for review and criticism, that is what discussion forums are for.  
 
Look up this things yourself:  
*Canada taking women/children/families.  
*Canada taking from first waves of refugees  
*Biometric iris scans  
*Quran advocates violence  
*Baathist government discourages Burkas and hijabs  
*okay, on Syria being Liberal, a generalization, but true on comparison to other predominantly Islamic countries  
 
I think that sums up most of my assertions.  
 
Religion does have everything to do with this topic, we wouldn't have religious extremists if wasn't for religion, its not just Islam causing problems, Christianity too, but the harm there is more psychological than physical.  
 
You seem to have taken some offense at my attitudes towards the bible, let me ask why can we criticize scientific theories, politics, etc, but religion is off limits? Or at least we have to put on the kids gloves when being critical. Why is that? Religion should be up for debate, discussion, and criticism just like anything else.  
 
Ive read the bible, old testament twice, king James and NIV, and based on that I concluded that the big G of the old T is one of, if not the biggest and most terrible villians in all of fiction, now that's not even an opinion, its an observation, in fact, properly read the old testament is one of the greatest tools for atheism towards the god of Abraham, Yahweh, ever concieved. It was obviously written by men, and by men I mean people with penises, so much of it is belittling to women, never mind the fact that Yahweh is male, an alpha male God of a male dominated stone age middle eastern society. I'm sorry if that offends you, its not my intention.  
The new testament is much more benign and Jesus seemed like a nice guy if he existed, but it is all based on the foundation of the aforementioned book.  
 
It's nice that it makes you do good, its one of the positives about it all, I'll give it that, but as for myself and many others I don't need a book to tell me to do good, with promise of reward if I comply and threat of eternal fiery damnation if I don't.  
I'm a good person simply because I find it in myself to be a good person, nothing more.  
 
I will also point out what was recently on the news, is that a major study shows religious children show less altruistic behaviours than their secular counterparts, to simplify this, religious kids are meaner than children who were not indoctrinated into their parents religion. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/06/religious-children-less-altruistic-secular-kids-study  
 
We're products of our environment, and so are our religions, with a few rare exceptions.  
I can't help to wonder if we were in another time and place, if this would all be slightly different  
If we were in ancient Greece you might say please stop disparaging Zeus. If we were in ancient Scandinavia you might say please stop disparaging Thor. If we were in Syria you might say please stop disparaging Muhammad. Cause if I was there I would be criticizing those ones too.  
 
But of course you happened to be born into a Christian society in this time period, and for that reason your an atheist to those gods and thousands of other gods from across the world and history, so am I, the only difference between you and I is that I went one step further.  
 
But anyway I'm falling off topic and so in respect to the thread I'll leave it at that, but if a thread about religion comes up I hope we or others can have a cordial mature discussion on it without a foul being called against it.

The internet is the main threat of terrorism right now. No matter where in the world, ISIS will still recruit and have actively been successful through social media. I worry more about that than families that have been screened in safe camps.  
 
They have worked on many young people in this country who are lost and vulnerable and may be the boy or girl next door and born and raised in Canada. The Internet is global and can't be stopped easily.  
 
 
 
Edited by Kellye, 2015-11-20 22:51:46

don brown said "Why wasn't I informed of this, when did it happen, must of just been a recent happening, in the last few months we had a campaign for a federal election and I'm sure if there were problems someone would have mentioned it or had policy to address the problems. Going back to the year 2000 there have been some long standing problems become greater, child povery has increased, been studied and ignored by all governments , including right, left and centre.   Lamest excuse I've heard for doing nothing, oh wait, we've already done nothing. "

We will all sleep better knowing we spent an extra 1.2 BILLION dollars on our token refugees.  
What would 1.2 BILLION DOLLARS have done for the Hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing violence in the Middle East and Africa that are living in sub-standard conditions. United Nations relief agencies report that serious food and water problems are turning many of these camps into breeding grounds for a range of life-threatening diseases. Health officials say outbreaks of cholera, malaria, and acute jaundice - coupled with widespread malnutrition - are threatening the lives of many who thought they would be safe when they fled to the camps.  
 
But we have our election promise at any cost so we can sleep at night.  
 
Double the number of refugees,yes.  
Waste a billion dollars that could have saved an untold amount of pain and suffering for a couple hundred thousand lives.  
 
Sleep tight  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by loeog, 2015-11-20 22:52:47

I can only imagine the complaints from the Canadian public if we gave additional monies to foreign relief, have you never read or heard the comments made by so many about all the money that we spend outside our country. It is true that it might help more people out spent elsewhere, but I believe that refugees are refugees and refugee camps are refugee camps which means that spending money to better conditions for people in these camps would require ongoing funding for these people, and on the end would the refugees or the camps disappear. For some reason I think that it would not take long before we no longer thought it was an issued to support, somewhat like vetrens, or the homeless, or the working poor, or child poverty.  
 
I do sleep sound, for as a child I learned that there was always a monster under the bed, but the fear of the monster was more terrifying than the monster I could never find, so eventually I quit fearing the monster.

It would be very foolish to take the attitude that, because that one terrorist wasn't a refugee, if that's even true, we can relax now and just let them all in. We can't possibly know whether or not there are terrorists imbedded with the refugees. There could be one, there could be 5,000 or there could be none, but we don't know and that's the problem.  
 
There have been various reports of terrorists travelling with the refugees ever since this whole thing started.  
 
Another report:  
 
https://www.rt.com//news/322915-paris-suicide-bomber-greece/  
 
Also, it has been mentioned many times how most of these refugees are military age males. Well, it looks like the Christians and the Yazidis aren't the only people who are having a difficult time getting out and probably won't get out at all. The wives and children of these male refugees have been left behind and from what their wives are saying, appear to have been abandoned. They are questioning why their husbands left to come to the west. Maybe we should be questioning it too.  
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3263593/Syrian-wives-mothers-left-condemn-men-fled-country-ask-free-protect-wrong-le...  
 
Every country in the world has the right to decide who it allows inside it's borders. We are under no obligation to accept any of these people. The federal Liberal government has recklessly placed us under a self-imposed obligation, but that's all it is. We certainly should be able to slow down the process and make damn sure that if we are not 100 percent certain who somebody is and not 100 percent certain that they are not a terrorist or terrorist sympathizer, they do not, under any circumstances get in to Canada and we have to do it before they set foot on Canadian soil. To do anything less than that would be an example of extreme stupidity.  
 
 
 
Edited by Triplethreat, 2015-11-20 23:33:07

don brown said "I can only imagine the complaints from the Canadian public if we gave additional monies to foreign relief, have you never read or heard the comments made by so many about all the money that we spend outside our country. It is true that it might help more people out spent elsewhere, but I believe that refugees are refugees and refugee camps are refugee camps which means that spending money to better conditions for people in these camps would require ongoing funding for these people, and on the end would the refugees or the camps disappear. For some reason I think that it would not take long before we no longer thought it was an issued to support, somewhat like vetrens, or the homeless, or the working poor, or child poverty.     I do sleep sound, for as a child I learned that there was always a monster under the bed, but the fear of the monster was more terrifying than the monster I could never find, so eventually I quit fearing the monster. "

Your OK with 100,000 dollars per person.  
If your fine with 25,000 by Christmas at any cost, that's fine.  
 
All I'm saying is take 3 months and bring 50,000 refugees at 50,000 each.  
 
Or 25,000 refugees in three months and protect 25,000 from death.  
 
 
Camp death rates are at .1 percent per month but that's still 1000 people per month per 1 million people. With over 4 million in camps, you do the math.  
 
 
https://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/download.php?id=1935  
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by loeog, 2015-11-20 23:51:00

Syrians should be treated as terrorists.....  
 
 
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2015/10/26/fishermen-rescue-one-year-old-syrian-toddler-in-aegean-sea.html  
 

Timetowakeup said "Is anyone else confused as to what the link has to do with refugees maybe you could explain "

The video is of a family of Syrian family whose boat capsized and were rescued (rather than being abandoned because they "might" be terrorists). Did you watch it?