Discussions

I suppose we're all speculating to sone degree.  
 
True, everybody's reality is different, in all ways, even right down to seeing different shades of colour. What I was more referring to was the psychotic hallucination aspect.  
 
Putting aside the whole broader scope of the NCR debate, and speaking of just this case, even if he was in a psychotic state (I'll trust the professionals that he was) whether or not he truly knew what he was doing was morally wrong (which is the crucial requirement for NCR) nobody but him knows for certain, I'll concede that, who can say otherwise?  
 
Generally our judicial process leans towards the unofficial mantra that it's better to let a guilty man go than convict an innocent man, overall I think that's a good thing.

Brenda said "    Enfyre said "    whatthewhat said "    Enfyre said "    zombie said "Actually if the wheel came off your car you could be held criminally liable for not conducting proper upkeep and maintenance on their vehicle.     People who "have the wheels come off" figuratively, should be able to be held liable for not conducting proper mental upkeep. " I had a full mechanical checkover on a car several years ago, including checking and repacking all the bearings, about 2 months later my wheel partially came loose while driving, there was no noise or warning, turned out to be caused by bearings. If someone was hurt as a result, I had the receipt for that recent service, I wouldn't be liable for anything.     If you don't like that premesis, then let's say that a lightning bolt came down on his car while driving, damaging the cars electrical system, power steering quits, and as a result he loses control and tragedy results.     That's probably a better anology to schizophrenia anyway, both deal with electrical impulses and nature being at fault. " Did you read the link I provided??? It says they did 2 Psyche evaluations - and he was found able to stand on Trial - his parents tried to say he was mentally unstable, yet a Psychologist found TWICE that he was capable of sitting on Trial - so what is the true message being sent out now???     Yeah - it seems like he had NO diagnosis before hand - chose to grab the knife, chose to slash people, then walked over to someone sitting on the couch, after he rationalized that they could identify him, chose to walk upstairs, and kill the guy sleeping - no one was threatening him - he CHOSE all his actions - can recall his thoughts - has a Daddy that works in the Legal Field, who tosses out this "God told me too" blame game commentary - and this is OK with you??? He planned for this - that is INTENT my friend. That means GUILT - what don't you understand??? Have you read the links I have posted??? I can post them again - if you need help with that. " I followed the trial as well.   Being able to stand trial means he was no longer in a psychotic state. Immediately after his arrest he was placed on anti-psychotic medication, and as a result was found able to stand trial over a month later. The "true message" being sent out there was that the medication was working.     Schizophrenic episodes doesnt always result in amnesia.     Schizophrenia causes hallucinations and effects ones view of reality, not their ability to take actions, make decisions, or rationalize things all in their warped or completely deluded sense of what's real.     Your conspiracy theory about his dad is just unsubstantiated speculation. " After his arrest he was put on medication.   So, he was not on medication when this incident happened, therefore not of sound mind and in a pyshotic state. So after the medication he was able to stand trial, but the incident did not happen after he was fit to stand trial, it happened before.     You still need to research schizophrenia more.   It completely and 100% does affect actions,   decisions, etc.     I will help you a bit with a link:   http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/problem/consequences-of-non-treatment/schizophrenia     http://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/default.htm       and I would search the Mayo Clinic if I were you. "

Exactly, thanks for reiterating.  
 
Note that I said "ability to take actions" not "effect on actions". Key difference.

This is a much needed discussion on mental illness. I too could not accept the concept of a psychotic episode, especially when it was used as a defence for a horrendous crime such as a senseless murder. My attitude towards this changed a few years ago when my dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer ’s disease and as his primary caregiver I saw firsthand how someone can change in a moment, then snap out of it in moment. My dad was eldely and in his early 80s but had no other physical health issues to impede his mobility and he was very strong for his age. As his illness progressed I would go every day to check on him. I would be making him a sandwich and he wouldn’t recognise who I was. I learned to recognise the vacant stare and then he would accuse me of trying to poison him. Or if I had a knife and was cutting meat or whatever he would think I was trying to kill him. At times he refused to let me in the house as he believed I was an intruder. I discussed all of this with his health care professionals. We removed all the knives from his home and made it as safe as we could. To see a loving, caring father turn into someone totally different in just a moment was such a horrible thing to even begin to comprehend. He also had hallucinations and would see things or people that weren’t there. I couldn’t convince him what he saw wasn’t real so I had to go along with it and pretend that I had put out the fire that was burning in the middle of his living room or whatever else he thought he saw.  
I have since changed my mind on the subject of psychotic episodes with someone suffering from Schizophrenia and other mental illnesses. I have seen it happen with my dad with Alzheimers. If we are honest with ourselves, we have to admit that the human brain is still the least understood part of the body and there is so much more to learn. If he had killed or injured me or someone else, I know he would not have remembered it. Would he have been fit to stand trial? If that had happened, should he have been punished with jail time?

It''s interesting how our nature is to justify something as ok just because it happened to us. Alzheimer''s is a terrible thing. I worked in a care home for 5 years and to see what the person and the families have to go through is heart breaking.  
 
West Wind, "if" your father had killed you and didn''t remember it does that mean that he should be allowed to roam in the public? I would be confident he wouldn''t, if due to a mental condition he would be taken to a facility to help that, if he did come back to an understanding mental state he should have to serve time somewhere. We should be required to pay for the actions our bodies do. If caused by a mental illness, first and foremost fix the illness if possible, secondly pay for the crime wherever, but it still needs to be paid. It''s called accountability for for what I have done. And no matter how I explain it away it is still my body that committed the offence.  
 
In these situations the victims are being victimized, the person who has done the horrible action is now being treated as fairly as possible and is rehabilitated as a drain on our countries resources(correct me if I''m wrong). I am not attacking mental health, it''s just that our thinking is backwards. The people who have lost loved ones now have to pay, this society is putting the value of the mentally ill over the vitims.  
 
I''m not saying lock them up and throw away the key, but those 5 people are lost, they''re gone, their families have to deal with it each and every day for the rest of their lives and they get no reconciliation of any kind, and their killer gets every form of care that he needs to get him straight again. What keeps him in a facility is his illness, not his crime, which means when he overcomes his illness and gets better he''s allowed out. He should still have to pay time for his crime as retribution or reconciliation to the lives he took.  
 
Edited by The unknown, 2016-06-03 08:35:52

"It's interesting how our nature is to justify something as ok just because it happened to us."  
I am not justifying anything. Just that I have seen how someone can change in a moment. Also, if anything had happened to me, my siblings and my children would also be victims. And no, I did not say if this had happened that my dad should be allowed to be out with the general public. Nor should he have been put into a personal care home where he would have contact with other residents. But, he should also not be incarcerated in a prison situation.  
He ended up on ant-psychotic medications, drooling, unable to communicate or do anything for himself. He was a WWII veteran who never spoke of his war years yet his last few months before he was heavily sedated seems to be where he reverted back to. A thunder storm in his mind became bombs. The death he saw. He relived it. This is very personal to me but I just hoped to give a little bit of insight into what we do not understand about brain disorders.  
 
Edited by WestWind, 2016-06-05 06:02:51